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Discussion Starter #1
I watched a video about this so I understand it a bit more. But I wonder what the specific benefits are on our bike. Is the OEM fueling inefficient? The Kali shop tells me not to mess with the ECM system because it will void my warranty.


 

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There's really no need for one on our modern bikes. You can get anything you want with an ECU flash.

In short, you'd want one if you want to alter the air/fuel ratio to your personal liking (mostly on older bikes - newer bikes have a more sophisticated ECU).

Modern bikes run too lean in low rpm and it typically affects the smoothness of the throttle response. It gets snatchy and your bike runs hotter than it should.
 

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It's also more for if you want to change your bike's fueling quickly, without waiting for someone to flash the ECU (or having to pull your bike apart and do it yourself). It's not the same, but I have a tuner on my truck that has 5 modes I can switch between for different things I need.
 

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There's really no need for one on our modern bikes. You can get anything you want with an ECU flash.
Flash for the 2017 is still unavailable... I'm not exactly sure what Nels 2 Wheel Dynoworks offers, but nobody else seems to have anything.
I may have to resort to a PC-V until a reliable flash is available. And I would only do that after seeing several successful implementations.

My main motivation is so I can install a 4-1 pipe and lose the cat. I'm not expecting huge performance gains.
 

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@Night Hawk
I am one of those that worries excessively about voiding a warranty due to a past experience on a car.
When I decided to do Ivan's flash I chose to purchase a used ECM and send that in and keep the factory ECM on hand for warranty work If any thing ever came up.
Recently I had a rear brake line failure and but back in the stock ECM and header before taking it in for repairs. Of course they got approval to and ordered the part which came in the same week. A great experience with the extended warranty but no where near cost effective yet.
The funny part is while picking the bike up and speaking with the service writer he tried to sell me a fuel controller. So I took the opportunity and asked how dealers handle warranty work when fuel controllers are installed. He replied unless it's a hack job they would mention it was installed. I then mentioned there was a company that would reflash the ECM and if this was done would it void the warranty? He laughed and said unless they cracked or cut the cast how would anyone even know. I still will put the stock ECU back in for warranty work but if needed in a jam wouldn't be near as worried on the bike.
As for why a shop would recommend a PC V over a tune like Ivans, my belief is because they can't sale the tune.
 
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Up until a few years ago, ivan offered a powercommander that went with our ninja flash. A gew years later, he updated his flash, and we did not need to use rhe pcv anymore.

Its decent technology, but far too limited in its abilities to help much anymore. Obsolete is rhe best word i can think of.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Lots of good info, thanks. I also wonder, if you change the headers is a flash needed?
 

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For most bikes, a regular slip-on typically doesn't matter much. If you do headers and get rid of the cat, that will significantly increase flow; I'd imagine it would be best to have a tune or the bike may run very lean.
 

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Is the OEM fueling inefficient?
Yes.

If you are interested in a fix for the poor fueling, then an ECU flash is probably the preferred fix (as you can see from many of the answers above).

If you are questioning (as I suspected you were) the uncertain value of an after-market "fix" to OEM fueling, then there is more to the story.

In general there are three types of performance-enhancing modifications vehicle enthusiasts tend to purchase:

1. Higher-cost replacement components that most customers don't want to pay for

2. Lower-cost voodoo that does not in fact improve performance

3. Regulatory end-runs

Ohlins suspensions or Sargent seats are from the first category.

Power Commanders and ECU flashes are from the third.

Factory-produced vehicles are obligated to pass environmental standards with respect to emissions. Those standards have grown progressively more stringent in recent decades. As a consequence, stock fueling on a new bike is often leaner than desirable in terms of performance alone. Factory leaning can be especially pronounced at low throttle configurations where the engine is at greater risk of producing environmentally undesirable byproducts of incomplete combustion, most notably nitrogen oxide. Other lean spots can occur at the random (not really!) RPMs that just happen to align with the specific emissions testing protocol that will be used to certify the bike.

Older riders will usually tell you that a modern bike has better brakes, better tires, better suspension, etc., but *worse* fueling than those we rode twenty years ago. This is why.

Enter after-market fueling mods such as the Power Commander and the ECU flash. These mods deliver real, sometimes substantial, performance gains. This is not because the factory engineers are incompetent numbskulls, but because the factory engineers are obligated to optimize for two parameters (high performance and low emissions) while the after-market guys need only optimize for one.

That's my story anyway.

Cutting against this story is the 2017 N1K. Riders on this forum who have ridden both pre-2017 models with Ivan's flash and also the stock 2017 have indicated that the fueling on the stock 2017 is just as good as the flashed pre-2017 bikes. I would have predicted that Kawasaki wouldn't be able to match Ivan's performance results and still get their bike certified. Apparently I would have been wrong, so what do I know.
 

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Peaple have not said anything like that, regarding the 2017.....at leas not here., but theres not a chance the 2017 will fuel anywhere near what Ivan has, simply because it cant. We actually have 2017 owners calling Ivan and asking when, and we have a few who have already had their 2017's flashed, by other companies. That would not happen on a well fueled bike. It probably is better than the 14, or the 16, but its still not goign to be anything special.



Even if they got perfect, and they didn't, the emissions rules prevent them from doing what Ivan is able to do.
 

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No one with a brain would recommend boosterplug. Read what it does, and then try to figure if any bike has the problem it will solve. It adds 6% fuel, everywhere. That would have been decent for the 2003 sv650.

Adding 6% fuel, everywhere, was valuable at one time.. possibly the very first efi bikes, up until they statted having exhausts with cats....After that, piece of garbage thats going to harm as much as it helps.

It's that that easy to figure out.

If you look at any power commander map, see if a map, made for a stock bike, adds 6% fuel, everywhere..

Again, anyone would would even direct people to one is uninformed, and irresponsible.
 

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Peaple have not said anything like that, regarding the 2017.....at leas not here.
What you are describing (Ivan's flash besting the stock fueling) is what I would expect. Still, I don't think I'm imagining the testimonials on behalf of the 2017.

Here is, for instance, cooldaddygroove:

"I can honestly say the 2017 Off-to-On throttle response is like my 2012 with Ivan's flash."

https://www.kawasakininja1000.com/forum/ninja-1000-general-discussion/20010-stock-2017-n1k-vs-modded-earlier-models-3.html#post312690
 

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No one with a brain would recommend boosterplug. Read what it does, and then try to figure if any bike has the problem it will solve. It adds 6% fuel, everywhere. That would have been decent for the 2003 sv650.

Adding 6% fuel, everywhere, was valuable at one time.. possibly the very first efi bikes, up until they statted having exhausts with cats....After that, piece of garbage thats going to harm as much as it helps.

It's that that easy to figure out.

If you look at any power commander map, see if a map, made for a stock bike, adds 6% fuel, everywhere..

Again, anyone would would even direct people to one is uninformed, and irresponsible.

Well, well, Mr. Cannon. As usual for you, if it's not Ivan's, it's crap. :smile_big:

I am not recommending the Booster plug, we are only discussing it here as an option. I have never heard of it before this thread.

And it looks like you didn't even take the time to read the entire operating description. It DOES NOT just add 6% everywhere, it still uses the O2 sensor to regulate the mixture control. I think it's worth considering, especially while there are few if any other options. But I have no vested interest in it, do not own one, and would like to get other opinions from people who are actually open-minded. I used to have a Ducati, and tried something called the Fat-Duc which also altered the fueling with some success, although via a different method.

So for the benefit of anyone reading this thread, here is a description of the operation of the B-P which you chose not to read? Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. Right now, your buddy Ivan's got nothing. :plain:



The idea itself is actually rather simple: if you can trick the computer to think the ambient temperature is lower than the actual temperature reading, it will enrichen the mixture a little which will improve acceleration and throttle response.

And it gets even better: All modern bike have an oxygen sensor in the exhaust to provide a feedback that will adjust mixture back to factory determined level. This actually works to your advantage as there’s a certain delay in this feedback.

This means that as long as you maintain a steady speed (steady throttle, steady RPM), the feedback from the O2 sensor will make the computer adjust the mixture back to the original lean level (good for mileage). This is called “Closed Loop” operation.

As soon as you move to a different cell on the injection map by changing the throttle position or the RPMs, the oxygen sensor feed back cant keep up, and the bike will rely on the basic fuel map and input from temperature/air pressure sensors (like the first generation of fuel injection computers did). Now you will have the slightly richer mixture that is improving the drivability a lot. This is “Open Loop” operation

So you will get the best of two worlds: Improved throttle response where you need it, while maintaining a good mileage – quite brilliant actually!

All you have to do is to change the signal from the Air Intake Temperature Sensor by adding some extra resistance, and the technique is not unknown, but no one has ever been really successful with this method before.

You have to know what you are doing, and there are several problems you must solve before you get a usable result.

You need to know about the “Open Loop” – “Closed Loop” operation and understand in detail how it works.

You need to know how much to enrich the original mixture to obtain a perfect result.

You need to know that the behaviour of the original Air Intake Temperature sensor is not linear and that it’s very difficult to tweak so you will obtain a constant enrichment in all ambient temperature conditions.

There are plenty of plug-and-play devices out there that will promise wonderful results by changing the temperature input, but few of them have a clue to what they are doing, and none of them have been able to provide a stable output in all ambient temperatures.
 

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I am not as knowledgeable about tuning and fueling as some of the members on this forum, but that booster plug seems like snake oil. Ivan's fuel map changes are designed to work in conjunction with matched changes to ignition timing and reprogramming of the secondary throttle plates. Much more complete.

But then again, I am no expert. That plug may offer some benefits. I can say for sure that what Ivan does is very thorough and works incredibly well.

Back to the original question which was why use a PC. The reason for this would be to get a custom tune on a dyno. Each individual bike may have slight variances so you could possibly find some tiny improvements with a custom tune. As good as Ivan's work is I doubt there is anything more to be had. I still have the PC as mine is Ivan's earlier work before he started putting the maps inside the ECU. I did update the map a couple times but I think I am going to pull the ECU this winter so I can get his latest and get rid of the PC.

Anyone ever have a PC5 failure of any kind???
 

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Another reason for using a power commander is it's handy map switch. Some people want to run two different maps for whatever reason. Maybe a fuel economy map and a performance map or in some cases a pump gas map and race gas map.
 
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