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Discussion Starter #21
The first thing I did was become familiar with modern motorcycles.

When I did that, I learned that the "hot" temperatures were controled by the ecu. You manage the heat by setting the ecu up to be efficient instead of emissions compliant. I also didnt pretend that I had a problem, or dick around with an automatic fan. That fan is doing what it was programmed to do.

With both of my bikes, I had a trusted professional reflash their ECU's. I also added a full exhaust ( no more cat) . Guess what? No more pretend heat issues.

New one, what you are saying makes good sense. However, you dont need that second switch when you are able to re-program the original switch.
Lucky you... There no one here that can reflash my ECU only for the Temp ... They are Complete reflash... Messing with emission here is a $5000 Fine... SO no thanks... I am happy with my switch :):):) as I was with my old 1984 GPz Ninja 900R that is still running fine after 115K Miles and never saw those high 210 F temp...
 

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Yeah quit dicking around with your fan. :LOL:

Seriously, from what I gather from other vehicle performance sites, drag racers, etc., a liquid cooled engine makes best power right around 170-180 degrees F coolant temp. I remember reading about that in road test magazines when they are trying to get the best 1/4 time. They don't run the cars back to back, pass after pass, they let the motor cool down a bit. I don't know how they do it on dyno runs nowadays. Do they let the engine "cruise" with a giant fan in front of the radiator, get the coolant temp down, then do the pull?

Having said that, liquid cooled engines will be most efficient at 200-210 deg coolant temp. That's why during emissions testing they tell you to get your car fully warmed up before taking it. Then the test folks will let your car sit there idling, before they do the test. They want the Coolant temp to be in the 200+ range.

Now if you go ride a bike with a coolant temp readout, obviously not on the damn Ninjas, you will note that at steady state cruising at 75 mph the coolant temp will hover around 175-185 deg F. on most days. It doesn't run at 210 degrees at 75 mph. So what does that tell us? To me it means it's probably best to keep coolant temps under 200 degrees F most times. Mitigate prolonged high temp running by avoiding traffic or riding in parades. But if you find yourself doing that a lot, change the oil more often.
 

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Lucky Me? No...my bike is ok. Part of the reason it is ok is because I trusted experts and didnt try to micromanage something I did not understand.

Slydo, i dont know where you are, but where i am we have places where you can put things in a box, or envelope . If you give them money, they will take the envelope to someone who is smart enough to deal with its contents. I dont think i could stand to live in a place that pulled me over and checked to see if my motorcycle ecu was stock.

When you put your switch in, you will be violating the emissions rules, too, and be subject to those same fines

You should take time to become familiar with the differences between your 1984 gpz and your new Ninja before you start making changes. The information is free, and easy to find.Its your bike and you are welcome to make any change you would like to. My reply is geared towards someone who wants to know why things are worth doing, and why they are not worth doing.

Luck me? I am lucky. I appreciate having the intelligence to not invent problems or solutions to non exsistent problems.
 

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It seems to me that the "hot engine" debate is the 2020 equivalent of the perennial "which oil should I use" debate. Both debates generate much angst and border on being pointless.

RC's reasoning is logical and makes sense, but the truth is no-one, with the exception of Ma_Kaw, Ivan & Woolich, knows with any certainty just what the ECU is doing at any given point in time, or if there is any difference in the ECU logic between the various generations of N1K. (does a 2011 ECU "think" like a 2019 ECU ? )

All of us, me included, are just speculating, some of it based on science, some on personal experience and some on what a "shade tree" mechanic once said over a beer.

So here is my $0.02 worth based on my personal experience.
  • 2019 N1K, stock ECU, factory headers, stock mufflers & O2 sensor operational, and the bike will flash the maximum 6 bars on the Temp guage at the exit ramp stop-lights after a 1 hour "cruise" down the Freeway at 110 kph (5,000 rpm).

  • 2019 N1K, stock ECU, Akrapovic headers, stock mufflers & O2 sensor removed! and the bike will STILL flash the maximum 6 bars on the Temp guage at the exit ramp stop-lights after a 1 hour "cruise" down the Freeway at 110 kph (5,000 rpm).
In both cases, the bike will show only 3 bars on the temp gauge while cruising at 110 kph.

According to the Service Manual, because the O2 sesnor is not working (it's been removed), the ECU disables the "feedback" mode. So, my conclusion is that the "overheating" issue is not directly attributable to the ECU.

My guess is that a re-flashed ECU (Ivan or Woolich) changes the fueling map, the ignition timing map and the fan "on" point, and that these 3 things reduce the incidents of "hot engine".

It will be interesting to see what happens after I get my ECU re-flashed next month. My guess is that it will still flash 6 bars at the exit ramp stop lights. The difference may be that the ECU may now turn on the fan earlier than before.

I like to have hassle free rides, so I have fitted a fan over-ride switch which I only use when I see 6 bars on the Temp gauge. YMMV.
 

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From having a 2015 flashed and a 2018 unflashed, I can say with certainty two things: one, I have a massive package... sorry, wrong forum...er,, anyway, my 2015 ran hotter before the flash. Second thing the 2018 runs hotter than the pre-flashed 2015. So the simple conclusions, which are supportable, that I can draw is it seems the new bikes run hotter, and the flash effects how hot the engine runs as well.

All that being said, I eagerly await Ivan's flash and I"m definitely going to swap out the exhaust system. I don't need to be a psychic to foretell that the bike will definitely not run as hot at that point.
 

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Train I've had two Ivan flashes and there were no regrets only satisfaction. Many others have as well. I wouldn't trust anyone else to flash the ninja.
 

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Murph, that's half the problem. The knowledge of whats happening in the ecu isnt a mystery. A lot of the info is on Ivan's first page. It's also on woolich's page. Why? Because if they are going to sell kits, no one is going to buy a kit based in secrets, guesses, and opinions. Ivan also answers specific questions regarding specific operations of the ecu if a person has them. I did, and he answered the questions I had. Dynojet , the powercommander people, have a ton of Info on their site.

I also used five different reflashes that he did for my c14 and was aware of the changes that were made as this was going on. I soon realized Ivan knew way more than I did. The difference was, I realized I didnt know anything. He did. So, in order for me to understand, i had to realize he wasnt talking "opinion". He knew facts. I could either shove my head in the sand and pretend I knew best, or pull my head out and listen. Guess what? I finally had the answer to why my bike ran hotter than it should.

I chose to listen, and learned a few basic things instead of thinking, "Well, that's an opinion....no one but god knows what's happening in an ecu"
 

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I sat and looked at Ivan's monitor as he walked me through the various tables when my ecu was plugged into his computer. That's all mapping really is is a series of tables that are arrayed in a matrix liek fashion where "locations" in the table can either be turned on or off. I'm oversimplifying it, but the point is he reads those tables like we read the label on a beer bottle. It's not guesswork, he pretty much knows how each of those "locations" will impact the bike depending on it's relative position in a table. I guess that makes Ivan god of ECU's, because he knows what's happening. It, like anything a computer understands, is rather binary.
 

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Rock, I dont know..... those pages may have been filled with Ivan's opinion? We really cant have facts anymore because facts are hard, and require reading....and taking action . It's easier to have opinion.

It is interest talking to him about some of that. It didnt take long to realize how li tied we were back when all we had were power commanders. Back then, it was possible to have a bike with perfect fueling, but it was a pos to deal with.
 

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opinion and supposition. I especially liked it when he handed my ecu back and said "god only knows what I did to it, but in my opinion the bike might run better" :)
 

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Discussion Starter #34
It seems to me that the "hot engine" debate is the 2020 equivalent of the perennial "which oil should I use" debate. Both debates generate much angst and border on being pointless.

RC's reasoning is logical and makes sense, but the truth is no-one, with the exception of Ma_Kaw, Ivan & Woolich, knows with any certainty just what the ECU is doing at any given point in time, or if there is any difference in the ECU logic between the various generations of N1K. (does a 2011 ECU "think" like a 2019 ECU ? )

All of us, me included, are just speculating, some of it based on science, some on personal experience and some on what a "shade tree" mechanic once said over a beer.

So here is my $0.02 worth based on my personal experience.
  • 2019 N1K, stock ECU, factory headers, stock mufflers & O2 sensor operational, and the bike will flash the maximum 6 bars on the Temp guage at the exit ramp stop-lights after a 1 hour "cruise" down the Freeway at 110 kph (5,000 rpm).

  • 2019 N1K, stock ECU, Akrapovic headers, stock mufflers & O2 sensor removed! and the bike will STILL flash the maximum 6 bars on the Temp guage at the exit ramp stop-lights after a 1 hour "cruise" down the Freeway at 110 kph (5,000 rpm).
In both cases, the bike will show only 3 bars on the temp gauge while cruising at 110 kph.

According to the Service Manual, because the O2 sesnor is not working (it's been removed), the ECU disables the "feedback" mode. So, my conclusion is that the "overheating" issue is not directly attributable to the ECU.

My guess is that a re-flashed ECU (Ivan or Woolich) changes the fueling map, the ignition timing map and the fan "on" point, and that these 3 things reduce the incidents of "hot engine".

It will be interesting to see what happens after I get my ECU re-flashed next month. My guess is that it will still flash 6 bars at the exit ramp stop lights. The difference may be that the ECU may now turn on the fan earlier than before.

I like to have hassle free rides, so I have fitted a fan over-ride switch which I only use when I see 6 bars on the Temp gauge. YMMV.
What I understood from the past 40 years having Motorcycle ...They are ALL SET like that...With ECU OR NOT.... Thermostat start to OPEN @ 136-144 F and should be FULLY OPEN @ 167 F ...On the other part the FAN kick in ONLY when the temp reach over 212 F and shut OFF @ 208 F... If you can have your ECU reflash to start the fan @ 180-185 F and shut it OFF @ 170-175 F ...GO FOR IT....But all the places that I called / wrote..They DO NOT reflash ONLY for the FAN... Most of all motorcycle are set like that because the ALTERNATOR can NOT keep charging the battery at IDLE while the fan is ON....So by keeping the fan working for a short period of time they are CERTAIN to keep the battery charged..... I Just flip the switch as I come on a ramp or stuck in heavy traffic... That way I prevent the engine from getting at / over 210 F and I don't have to remove the CAT to keep it cool and my legs from getting toasted... Easy fix ...cheap...and effective... P.S. Flip your switch sooner ... The engine will never go below +/- 145 F The mechanical (thermostat) will not allow that...
 

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Good job, your understanding is incomplete, but at least you are trying. Wonder why no one will flash your ecu and have it change only the fan temps? I wonder if there is a clue buried in that answer?

The thought should be more along the lines of why is the fan kick on at 212 if lower is really better? It's not related to battery charging, or high energy draw from the fan. That hasn't been a problem since the 80's, and maybe earlier than that.

You could also look at what you are trying to accomplish. The bikes have been running these temps since at least late 2016, without any problems. You will be guessing , or using feelings to decide when to run your fan. You feel hot, so the bike must be, too, right? At best, you will be throwing hot air around when you dont have to.
 

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Hi, Got same HI TEMP problem with my new 2019 Ninja 1000 (ZX1000WK) that old 1984 Ninja had... Reaching Red Zone Temp before the fan gets ON while driving in Town... 2019 Kawasaki Shop Manual specify: Fan gets ON @ 100 C (212F) and OFF @ 97.5 C (208F) while the Radiator Thermostat keeps the engine Temp @ 62 C (144F) while cruising on the road.

Knowing that Mineral Oil general rule of thumb is that the rate of oxidation doubles for every 10°C (18°F) rise in temperature above 75°C (165°F)

So by keeping the Engine's Temp @ 100 C the oil oxidize 2.5 time faster ...

So I put as my ( 88,000 Km / 55K Miles) 36 years old Ninja a manual switch ...that I switch ON before getting in town / heavy traffic and switch OFF when I cruise...

If you are interested ...It is quite easy when you know which wire to use...

Enjoy your ride and be safe
Hi, I have the same bike. I purchased a new 2018 N1K last April. I had the same problem. The bike started to overheat during a hot summer day in bumper to bumper traffic. I thought the head was going to warp and had to shut the bike off a few times until the traffic subsided. I believe when they built the bike, they didn't "burp" the system, and there are pockets of air in the coolant system. If that happens, it can't cool properly. I wasn't aware of that initially. I jumped to the gun a little bit and drained my entire coolant system and flushed the whole thing out. I flushed out the reservoir bottle filled the system 4-5 times w/ distilled water until it ran clear. I then put in Engine Ice. I burped the system 3 or 4 times, and now it is running fine.


The reason I said I jumped the gun was that I think all I needed to do was burp the system. Get the air pockets out and add some Kawasaki green engine coolant to the appropriate level. I hadn't done all the research and didn't know as much as I do now. If burping the system doesn't work, then proceed to do what I did. Drain the system, flush it out with distilled water. You gotta flush the radiator and the reservoir bottle. Then add some type of coolant like the engine ice, which doesn't play well with the stock coolant (the reason you have to flush...) Then burp the system. Try burping your system firs and seeing if that helps you.
 

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@pcdaveh exactly where are you burping the system from?
 

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You have to be careful with the word "overheat". That happens when you get a heat warning from the dashboard. Our original poster thinks "overheat" is when he thinks his engine is hot, because his skin is hot, and at that point hes going to turn his fan switch on. Two different things.
 
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