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Discussion Starter #1
For the bolt that connects the top front fork clamp with the handlebar, the service manual states 25Nm !
This is totally wrong, and I should've know better, but ended up with a broken screw which will be hard to get out.



I think an M6 alu screw should be around 5Nm.

You're warned :)
 

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Torque wrenches are like guns. When you need one, theres nothing that will substitute. However, in the end, both are often times better left in the case.

Those figures are for brand new, dry bolts. Also, a bolt like that is unusual. Being that its machined down, it wont take anywhere near the torque as a normal bolt.

Also, its a safety bolt that really does not do anything as long as the others are in.

Cylinders , heads, maybe case bolts. Otherwise?
 

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The best fasteners to destroy are on the triple clamps.

I had just bought my 82 yz 490, and we also got a new torque wrench. I worked for Snap on tools. This torque wrench was incredible. 1% accuracy, guaranteed.

I decided to torque the bolts. Had to be a good idea, right.

Odd things happen when two bolts are asked to "pinch". Clam shell like, I suppose. You tighten the first bolt to 17. You follow up with the second.

Unless the second is much looser, it will change how bolt one reads. Anyway, I kept alternating. Using the wrench instead of common sense.

I finally realized I had made two complete turns, with each bolt, and never saw the reading change. If anything, the reading became less. Impossible.

I took the bolts out and found this. Then it made sense:
 

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RC you are a very smart guy. You have actual real world experience.

I almost never use a torque wrench unless it is internal motor stuff, or fork pinch bolts...lol

You develop a feel after awhile for bolts and stuff, and know when something is wrong.

But there are also standards for certain things. I put my 4 wheeler head bolts at 40 lbs in 4 steps, and the cam caps at 8 ft/lbs. Thats just pretty common.

Fork pinch bolts are typically 15-17 ft/lbs. But you cannot run one in from nothing and then the other, both in steps. They use the surface area as the clamping force, not the actual bolt torque.

Sucks you had this problem...

If it makes you feel better I broke the bolt off inside my Honda mower crankshaft...lol I have no left handed drill bits.... Sucks. This should be a miniature nightmare.
 

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Jay, there was a point with the torque wrench learning curve where this bad stuff was happening a lot. Especially easy when our fasteners are not super quality or especially well designed. Like that bolt exp matters broke...I mean, really.

We can blame te book. It has to be wrong. Still, when that bolt starts at 15mm diameter and instantly necks down to 5, its a poor design..

What is nice is working on a Japanese machine and finding 6, 8, 10, 12, 14 and 19, 22...usually not much 17.

The Nazis like 7, 9, 11, 13, 14, 17, 19, 21 and torx. Italy is still adding sizes and one time use clamps.

Yes, I ended up doing the same. It comes out, occasionally, but
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Probably should have been 2.5 as opposed to 25.

I would have looked at at and guessed more 6lb/ft.
It is adjusted in the 2014 manual, and it is 9.8Nm ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #9
About doing it all by feel.
That's how I used to do it, before having a torque wrench. (actually you need 3 to work on the SX)

There are a lot of screws that only need 2Nm etc, very low values.
If you have a feel to only put 2Nm on a screw, I salute you.

If you want to know a screw of 2Nm, the clamps that fix the airbox filter, should have 2Nm.
I tried it by feel and with torque, I really don't have the feel to put 2Nm on it, it mostly was 4Nm by ""feel"".

For the clamps of the front forks, it is 20 & 25Nm.
You could easily turn it another turn ;)
on these screws 20 & 25Nm actually feels like it's not a lot.

Most other screws I agree, you can do it by feel, but the clams are IMO a different story, as well as the very low values.

Does it matter that much with the low values, I guess not.
But for the clamps it does matter I guess. As the force of the screw has a big impact on the thing that the clamp holds.
 

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So, its not the case of a missed decimal point? Nice. The manuals are not error proof.

I remember one year our shop sold three guys new yz 250's. The bikes were prepped and delivered Saturday evening.

Shop closed on Monday.

Tuesday morning, I arrive, and I believe the three of them are going to hurt someone. They were angry, and had sort of a group mentality.

Whats wrong? I ask....?

You f'ed me...all three of us. You stole our carburetors and put these POS Keihins on, instead. We realized it once we jetted it properly, as per the manual....

Sure enough, the manual had the carb brand listed as Mikuni, and the listed jetting was not related to what the bike came with.

At this point, its hard to prove you did not do something fishy, but once they saw the crated bike, and one on the showroom, it became obvious there was an error in the manual...mostly.

Just last week I saw a question where a 97yz 250 owner was looking for the real oem carb. His had been modified by the previous owner...he wanted the real mikuni....
 

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Exp, I dont think theres any way I could say my hand is anywhere near as accurate and consistent as even the poorest Harbor Freight model thats been dropped, returned for warranty, and ran over. I'm already mentioned how many fasteners I've broken or destroyed, right? Theres a lot.

Triple clamps are a big deal. If they are too tight, they can crush fork tubes. Many of the fasteners are a big deal, but just tightening the fastener to the book spec leaves out one important factor. Common sense.

If you really get into the world of fasteners, it is fascinating.

I dont believe any bolt, ever, is supposed to be used twice. Fasteners are a one time use item. I know, no one does this, but in theory, you should. We start off cheating the system. From here out, its just a matter of how badly we cheat, wrench or no wrench.

The supplied torque figures are intended for dry fasteners, first time use. Once its been used once, the threads wear into, or match the nut side, and its easier to turn. The used fastener also stretches differently than it would the first time. So, you have to replace anything you use to make those numbers truly valid. Also, if the fastener is lubricated, or thread lock applied, the figure changes.

Those are the rules that come before the torque wrench comes out. If you dont follow those rules, its not correct, anyway.

No matter what or how we do this, there has to be a way to not let a printing error be responsible for a broken bolt.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Exp, I dont think theres any way I could say my hand is anywhere near as accurate and consistent as even the poorest Harbor Freight model thats been dropped, returned for warranty, and ran over. I'm already mentioned how many fasteners I've broken or destroyed, right? Theres a lot.

If you really get into the world of fasteners, it is fascinating.

I dont believe any bolt, ever, is supposed to be used twice. Fasteners are a one time use item. I know, no one does this, but in theory, you should. We start off cheating the system. From here out, its just a matter of how badly we cheat, wrench or no wrench.

The supplied torque figures are intended for dry fasteners, first time use. Once its been used once, the threads wear into, or match the nut side, and its easier to turn. The used fastener also stretches differently than it would the first time. So, you have to replace anything you use to make those numbers truly valid. Also, if the fastener is lubricated, or thread lock applied, the figure changes.

Those are the rules that come before the torque wrench comes out. If you dont follow those rules, its not correct from here out.

The system we use, or our thought process, has to account for a printing mistake. I dont want my motorcycle built around and idea that wont catch that.
You're right.
I did use a thread repair tool in every screw hole. I found it the easiest way to remove old loctite :D
 

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About doing it all by feel.
That's how I used to do it, before having a torque wrench. (actually you need 3 to work on the SX)

There are a lot of screws that only need 2Nm etc, very low values.
If you have a feel to only put 2Nm on a screw, I salute you.

If you want to know a screw of 2Nm, the clamps that fix the airbox filter, should have 2Nm.
I tried it by feel and with torque, I really don't have the feel to put 2Nm on it, it mostly was 4Nm by ""feel"".

For the clamps of the front forks, it is 20 & 25Nm.
You could easily turn it another turn ;)
on these screws 20 & 25Nm actually feels like it's not a lot.

Most other screws I agree, you can do it by feel, but the clams are IMO a different story, as well as the very low values.

Does it matter that much with the low values, I guess not.
But for the clamps it does matter I guess. As the force of the screw has a big impact on the thing that the clamp holds.
I certainly hope you do not think I was trying to disparage you boss? I know you know your stuff.

Just that I have met people who say you should use a torque wrench for everything, and that's going to get you in as much trouble as never using one...lol

We do oil changes every single day, and no one use's a torque wrench for the drain bolt...lol You would strip them right out...lol It's all done by feel.

But when I assemble an engine it's torque wrench city, and honestly on fork clamp bolts I use my Torque wrench (which is WAY COOLER than RC's...lmao).

Times to use, times to not, sorry you got a broken bolt Boss.
 

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JExp, I will always insult and beat up on you/and or let you beat on me. Weve been friends for a long time, and we have always been friends, and I dont see that changing.

By all means, if you find a way to use this wrench, and find consistent value in doing so, please share it. I love using mine. It just feels so right, and so good. We dont need to be fast like jay does, but we all want good work.

Jay, your torque wrench would not really be fit to occupy the same drawer as mine.

Why? Two reasons. First is, I swindeled it from Yamaha, then encouraged others to do the same. Seriously, we missed the deadline by days, and that was bs.

second, it does say, " Yamaha by snap on" or "Go buy a strap on"" I forget which, since I rarely use it.

I do wish I had more use for it, but its like you say. If you start using it on oil drain bolts, you end up replacing oil pans. When Yamaha sent them to us, they got their money back. Guys were ripping sections out of their yz250 cases at 24lb/ft. On a two stroke, the case is a big deal.

I remember thinking the wrench would train me to be more accurate, or accurately guess torque values. Maybe, but it was so long, with so much leverage, it was no use.

No lie, one guy who might have written articles for a popular DIRT RIDER magazine actually asked, "How do I dry my oil drain bolt threads?" Fully aware the spec broke his first case, he did not want to repeat the mistake....?
 

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What is funny is we have the same exact torque wrench...lol I wish mine had an OEM jap bike makers name on it...lol

There is just life, and crazy stuff happens in life even when you think you are doing it all correctly...lol

If you work on stuff long enough, you will break bolts, blow fuses, burn wiring, assemble like ten things only to find a part on your bench that should have went in first, Try and use the wrong tool knowing it's the wrong tool as it's all you have, realize you have been testing things in an incorrect manner, leave a bolt loose...etc

Sadly it all happens. If you deal with 100 bolts a day, for maybe ten years, you will forget to tighten one somewhere along the way.

People think doing maintenaince is easy, they have no idea.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I have to ask the bad news...How expensive was the stupid bolt?
I got 20% discount, dealer account.
I paid 5.39 € for 2 bolts.

But I also lacked a pad on the side of the radiator = 12.78 €
And the oil overflow receiver of the airbox was just gone ... tube broke off, no idea when or how.

Oil receiver = 3.62 €
new tube : 2.69€
new clamp : 1.72 €
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I know you know your stuff.
No you don't, and no I don't either.

I'm a total service newb.
I even never changed the oil myself, my first time will be in 2 days.

I only messed around with some stuff.
Bi-xenon kit
installed some accesories, put the FCE in it myself, the ECU, changed battery etc ... no big stuff tbh.

This is my first big project.
But I was raised with the idea that you can do everything, if you put enough time & effort in it.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
It kinda looks cool tho, working with torque wrenches.
My biggest one is like half a meter long.
When my neighbors see me using it, they think I'm some kind of superman technician :D

And erm ... when did you insult me ?
Don't get soft now because of the XR guy (sorry forgot his name, something with Daily).
I have a thick skin, I love critique as it can only help me get better.
 
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It was explained to me one time by an engineer when i worked in the nuclear field that to much thread lubricant causes bolt breakage, every thing has to be torqued with never seize applied to the threads per specs, i looked at him and said really. Now we werent using just common torque wrenches, we used calibrated torque wrenches with multipliers because the torque values were high in the big bolts we were torquing, and we always cleaned and reused. The value was around 3,000 ft lbs
 
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