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Actually, Ivan could probably tell you if this is a problem. It will be Interesting to see what his flash does for this issue, or is able to tell us if it really is an issue.

Assuming the throttle bodies are are different, for the 17-19 bikes, I would have ordered these and found out for myself. If the shop finds the tire and even had a thinks it could be the issue, this could get very expensive as a self caused issue doesnt fit well with warranty .

These might cost 250, all in, to shipped to the usa. If it fixes the problem, awesome, if not then you have 4 nice back up injeectors. Easy to change if your arm and hand survives removing the airbox lid. They made sure that sealed, didnt they? Is it 234 screws, or 235 holding it on?

 

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My gut feeling is it's a sensor in the ABS/TC electrical pathway. TB's rarely go on Japanese motorcycles. Even then, a TB assembly has many different parts that can easily be replaced. Even though Kawasaki sells them as a whole for $$$. Even Japanese sensor failures are not common but it happens more often than a TB failure.
 

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There are defined errors for the abs system. Section 12, in the manual, shows those errors. He did a good job in pinpointing g this error to a specific spot. There are error codes for every Injector and every stick coil. If he has error 62, it's down to this area as the issue, not the
Abs system.



62
Subthrottle
Valve
Actuator
The actuator operates
open and close of the
subthrottle valve by the
pulse signal from the ECU.
If the subthrottle valve actuator fails (the
signal is out to the usable range, wiring short
or open), the ECU stops the current to the actuator.
 

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2017 Yamaha FZ-10 2017 Suzuki M109R
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That makes sense. I appreciate that clarification. You worded it very well.

My 2012 manual shows the same electrical specs on my throttle bodies as they do for the new bike. The actuator says it's supposed to be around 5.2-7.8.

The 2016 throttle bodies show 6.7 ohm on 1-2 and 6.5 on 3-4.

If the 2012 manual shows the same specs, it's likely that the resistance reading spec is the same through all the years. Has anyone noticed the same error code popping up on here for the pre-TCS N1K's? Obviously they wouldn't have the TCS light, but would have still had the Engine light and the same code. If this particular code hasn't popped up until the '17 model, maybe the added TCS circuitry has created a situation that causes the component to start to fail under a specific circumstances.
 

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And/or pre-IMU models.
 

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I had my grips replaced one on my 18'. The shop did it. Brought the bike back out, these lights were on. WTF?! Took it back in, reset the bike's codes, never seen the issue again. I have stock rear tire.
 

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I put the specifics on the other thread, but it was interesting when I compared my 2 rear tires. Both are on the bikes. Both are on 6 inch rims. . One is the pirelli agt that's on the c14. The other is on my ninja and it's the Dunlop q3 plus.

The dunlop is 12mm taller than the agt even though both are 190/55. The profile is completely different, too. The dunlop is round, and the agt is flat-ish.

After seeing how different these two are, it's hard to believe you could build a traction control system that was THAT sensitive to tire size, or profile. Especially when you consider tire wear. I wish we had some real info instead of having to guess.
 

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Discussion Starter #88
I don't think anyone other than maybe you believe the ECU has an issue compensating for the difference between a 190/50 and 190//55 and nobody thinks the ECU has an issue with the kunt hair difference between different brands of the same size.

I have no doubt the program has tire size input along with an allowable variance, is it 1%, 2.9% or?, it's definitely not 9-13% as noted by those that have swapped sprockets and received errors.

My experience is only with HPTuner and GM LS engines, running non-stock tires jacks up transmission shifts but a 2" overall diameter change did not cause fault codes for anything including ABS and TC on my truck so the program has an allowable variance.

It would be cool if riders had an OBD2 port for diagnostics and tuning on the N1000.
 

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2017 Yamaha FZ-10 2017 Suzuki M109R
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We know changing the front sprocket to a 16T alone will cause the gauges to go berzerk, and that change has nothing to do with tire diameter and is roughly a -6.25% change in rpm vs stock, which is close to double the rpm change of stock gearing and a 190/55. Without knowing exactly what inputs the IMU/TCS uses, it impossible to know what mod/circumstance causes the system to be out of spec.

The difference with the issue in this thread is that the engine light and TCS light don't come and go on their own and are not flashing. If I remember correctly, the threads where the front sprocket was changed, they said the lights were flashing and may go off for a while on their own and come back on. To me, that behavior is another reason why it doesn't seem to be related specifically to the TCS not liking the change in tire diameter.

At least we know the TCS does not use wheel speed alone, or just changing the front sprocket would have no affect. Just basing the TCS on rpm alone also wouldn't make any sense, so we can hypothesize it must use a combination of rpm and wheel speed and possibly including front wheel speed vs rear wheel speed.

1. 16T front sprocket is -6.25% change and is known to put the inputs out of spec.
2. Many are running a 190/55 which is roughly a -3% change from stock and are not having issues.
3. I know I had seen posts where the rear sprocket had been changed to a 39T which is roughly a -5% and they had no issues.

Knowing this, it would seem the threshold for the ECU intermittently throwing a code and disabling TCS (gauges going crazy) is somewhere between -5% and -6.25% rpm vs wheel speed.
 

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We will see. The tire change causes issues, on other bikes, with the same Bosch system. The Ninja must have a magical way to deal with this? Or, your resistance is incorrect, on a functional component..... ok

I was surprised to see such a variance in tire size between two tires that are supposed to be the same. The aprilia bikes let a person program the exact tire size in, within a 5mm window. . The Honda system throws errors if a 190/55 is used. But again, the nina system is magical.

The Dunlop q3 appears to be a large tire. Maybe larger than other 190/55 tires?...that's the same rear tire Tyrmeltr had on his bike when his functioning throttle bodies "failed".

The sad part was your not resetting the error. If it is a bad component, it would have came right back. Then you would know, and the shop would have a better idea of what to do. I dont know what you expect the shop to do, to be honest. Theres about zero chance of Kawasaki replacing throttle bodies because of one error. They will reset the light, and you wont let them ride the bike to see if the error returns.

You also violated the folder file that says you never, under any circumstances, ask for warranty work without returning the bike back to 100% stock condition. If they happen suspect the tire as being an issue, or it contributed to the issue, that "warranty" bill could be yours, not Kawasaki's.
 

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Another piece of info is that the error code associated with the change to a 16T front sprocket was 25, which related to the speed sensor.
 

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Discussion Starter #92
We will see. The tire change causes issues, on other bikes, with the same Bosch system. The Ninja must have a magical way to deal with this? Or, your resistance is incorrect, on a functional component..... ok
Keep believing that a tire size causes throttle bodies or secondary throttle actuators to fail, or any component for that matter, the systems are not that fragile.

And while you are at it, list the bikes, with the same Bosch system, the problems and the resolution of those YOU have OWNED.


The sad part was your not resetting the error. If it is a bad component, it would have came right back. Then you would know, and the shop would have a better idea of what to do. I dont know what you expect the shop to do, to be honest. Theres about zero chance of Kawasaki replacing throttle bodies because of one error. They will reset the light, and you wont let them ride the bike to see if the error returns.
Apparently you have never dealt with warranty work. Wait, you were a bike mechanic, right? Why don't you have the answer?

Tech re-sets codes, calls it repaired, bills for the warranty work, gets paid, gives it back to the owner and starts the process over.

I have the leverage (knowledge) of having performed the tests with the same manual the dealership will use, to combat the scenario above.

It is really easy to say "we can't duplicate the problem" when a bike arrives without fault codes. When the bike arrives with fault codes, and if they follow the manual they should replace the parts indicated in the manual. Since you respond to every damn post with a know it all condescending attitude, you do not gain credibility, you lose it.

How old are you, seriously, 23?


You also violated the folder file that says you never, under any circumstances, ask for warranty work without returning the bike back to 100% stock condition. If they happen suspect the tire as being an issue, or it contributed to the issue, that "warranty" bill could be yours, not Kawasaki's.
Research Magnuson-Moss, I have nothing to hide.
 

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I'm waiting for the final diagnosis. Listening to the speculation can be entertaining but what really caused it is what I'm looking for. Fingers crossed you have an honest dealer and an intelligent tech/mechanic working on it.
 
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Discussion Starter #94
I'm waiting for the final diagnosis. Listening to the speculation can be entertaining but what really caused it is what I'm looking for. Fingers crossed you have an honest dealer and an intelligent tech/mechanic working on it.
Same here.
 

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Ownership? What does that have to do with it? When I was a kid, I read a lot of books regarding the Space Shuttle . I never owned one. Facts dont change because of ownership. In fact, I went out of my way to avoid these systems. I wanted to modify my bike, and the new electronic systems are not forgiving, to modifications. That's bot a bad thing. The system has to be extremely accurate with regards to how it functions.

When I modded my bike, I did so with the understanding that a failure of one of my brilliant ideas was on me, not the manufacturer. I would be embarrassed to ask for warranty on a piece of the bike I modified. Modifications meant I needed to man up and not look to be bailed out when something went wrong. That was especially true after I worked on it.

I hope it is covered. Hell, I hope they owe you money, after the visit, but dont do the Magnuson Moss thing. You cant be that naive? Heres how that works. A shop denies your warranty claim because you used an unauthorized, aftermarket part. That falls into the category of I can show you the paragraph, in the owners manual, where it says you need to use the same type of tire. Chapter 12, page 32. That part just mentions the abs system, but its there. Guess what tire is recommended. 190/50.


"Use of non-recommended tires may cause malfunc-
tioning of ABS and can lead to extended braking
distance resulting in an accident causing serious
injury or death. Always use recommended stan-
dard tires for this motorcycle."

So, the shop denies you claim, based on facts. The shop has experienced lawyers on their side. They have done this a hundred times. Ive been involved in this. Once they deny your claim, you'll have 2 choices. Pay the bill, or look for one of the Lawers who has dedicated their life to defending your warranty rights, for no charge. That's not going to happen. You will have to give them a check. If you win, you can get his money back...six months, or a year later. I'm not sure where your bike sits, during this time. If you leave it at the shop, count on storage fees in addition to the others. Option 2 is, you lose. You will have paid the court costs, your lawyer, and still have a broken bike. People think theres some magical part of government who cares about your warranty. There really isnt, on a 1 for 1 basis. You'll be standing there...dick in one hand, checkbook in the other, if they decide your modifications caused, or contributed to this issue.

The act was written so that the manufacturers could not force you to use their service department, or buy their oils and filters in order to have a valid warranty.

it's probably solvable by adjusting the tps'-s baseline setting, just like we had to do with our original power comander tunes. This setting was sensitive. None of them were set precisely, from the factory. Yours is probably high, or low. Not enough to cause issues with a standard tire, but off just enough to cause issues with the slightly larger tire.
 

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Ownership? What does that have to do with it? When I was a kid, I read a lot of books regarding the Space Shuttle . I never owned one. Facts dont change because of ownership. In fact, I went out of my way to avoid these systems. I wanted to modify my bike, and the new electronic systems are not forgiving, to modifications. That's bot a bad thing. The system has to be extremely accurate with regards to how it functions.

When I modded my bike, I did so with the understanding that a failure of one of my brilliant ideas was on me, not the manufacturer. I would be embarrassed to ask for warranty on a piece of the bike I modified. Modifications meant I needed to man up and not look to be bailed out when something went wrong. That was especially true after I worked on it.

I hope it is covered. Hell, I hope they owe you money, after the visit, but dont do the Magnuson Moss thing. You cant be that naive? Heres how that works. A shop denies your warranty claim because you used an unauthorized, aftermarket part. That falls into the category of I can show you the paragraph, in the owners manual, where it says you need to use the same type of tire. Chapter 12, page 32. That part just mentions the abs system, but its there. Guess what tire is recommended. 190/50.


"Use of non-recommended tires may cause malfunc-
tioning of ABS and can lead to extended braking
distance resulting in an accident causing serious
injury or death. Always use recommended stan-
dard tires for this motorcycle."

So, the shop denies you claim, based on facts. The shop has experienced lawyers on their side. They have done this a hundred times. Ive been involved in this. Once they deny your claim, you'll have 2 choices. Pay the bill, or look for one of the Lawers who has dedicated their life to defending your warranty rights, for no charge. That's not going to happen. You will have to give them a check. If you win, you can get his money back...six months, or a year later. I'm not sure where your bike sits, during this time. If you leave it at the shop, count on storage fees in addition to the others. Option 2 is, you lose. You will have paid the court costs, your lawyer, and still have a broken bike. People think theres some magical part of government who cares about your warranty. There really isnt, on a 1 for 1 basis. You'll be standing there...dick in one hand, checkbook in the other, if they decide your modifications caused, or contributed to this issue.

The act was written so that the manufacturers could not force you to use their service department, or buy their oils and filters in order to have a valid warranty.

it's probably solvable by adjusting the tps'-s baseline setting, just like we had to do with our original power comander tunes. This setting was sensitive. None of them were set precisely, from the factory. Yours is probably high, or low. Not enough to cause issues with a standard tire, but off just enough to cause issues with the slightly larger tire.
RC, I agree with a lot of what you say being that I've worked my whole career in commercial insurance. We are often asked to cover things that are clearly related to abuse or neglect when it's to cover certain perils.

However, my experience is not so much in vehicle warranty which is slightly different. So based on the above, if the root cause of the problem is due to the 190/55, they may deny a warranty claim?
For me, I went into to the dealer asking for a set of Roadsmart 3 and asked for the 190/50, but the parts guy suggested the 55. I have the receipt and even had them mount it. But, I know they can still argue that manual recommends the 50. Based on your experience, if I had a failure similar to LSX, how do you see it going down? TIA
 

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I hope they are cool, and theres no reason why they wouldnt be. If this is traced back to that tire, I could see it going either way, but likely on the customers side. . Also, when you are back there working on 4 wheelers....seriously, that's most of the job. It's not often you get a good , motorcycle problem you havent seen 37 times before. I think this would be one of those rare issues that a tech would enjoy digging into.

So, the earlier bikes, 11-13 only had a crude abs system and crude tc that really didnt care what tire was there. The 2020 model has ride by wire, so its different.

The 17-19 has the old throttle bodies working with a high end electrical system. The tps , for the secondairy blades, is being asked to do a lot. It has to let the bike run, and step in to manage traction control, within milliseconds. These were never calibrated very well. Close enough to work, but never dead on like you could do, at home, or with the kds system the shop will have. Most were within a range that allowed this tire change. His was off, just enough, to raise hell with his traction control and a 190/55.

If that's the case, I could see the shop being allowed to replace the throttle bodies. I'm not sure they will allow calibration. It is part of the safety system. It might be cheaper, for kawasaki, to replace the bodies rather than take a chance on a shop doing this incorrectly and risk an accident. That's what they wanted Tyrmeltr to do, but he would have had to pay the 1500.00 for new bodies. Either way, count on Yoko being there to sing. She likes small audiences..
 

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I hope they are cool, and theres no reason why they wouldnt be. If this is traced back to that tire, I could see it going either way, but likely on the customers side. . Also, when you are back there working on 4 wheelers....seriously, that's most of the job. It's not often you get a good , motorcycle problem you havent seen 37 times before. I think this would be one of those rare issues that a tech would enjoy digging into.

So, the earlier bikes, 11-13 only had a crude abs system and crude tc that really didnt care what tire was there. The 2020 model has ride by wire, so its different.

The 17-19 has the old throttle bodies working with a high end electrical system. The tps , for the secondairy blades, is being asked to do a lot. It has to let the bike run, and step in to manage traction control, within milliseconds. These were never calibrated very well. Close enough to work, but never dead on like you could do, at home, or with the kds system the shop will have. Most were within a range that allowed this tire change. His was off, just enough, to raise hell with his traction control and a 190/55.

If that's the case, I could see the shop being allowed to replace the throttle bodies. I'm not sure they will allow calibration. It is part of the safety system. It might be cheaper, for kawasaki, to replace the bodies rather than take a chance on a shop doing this incorrectly and risk an accident. That's what they wanted Tyrmeltr to do, but he would have had to pay the 1500.00 for new bodies. Either way, count on Yoko being there to sing. She likes small audiences..
Thank you!
 

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Discussion Starter #100
Called shop earlier this week and was told they would start Thursday. Out of town on business but the called and come get your bike




ow, non-stock tire warranty denied
 
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