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First problem, CEL lit and TC flashing...

24K views 166 replies 18 participants last post by  exyamaha 
#1 ·
I had my first issue with my 2017, all stock with the exception of a 190/55 and this evening I jumped on to head home and once I got on the highway, up to 3rd or 4th it seemed to act up, almost like it lost power then came back and then the TC and CEL's lit up. The TC flashed the entire ride home but it seemed to run fine but a little hot for 73F ambient, one mark below max.

I found one thread with what may be the same issue, any others experience?
 
#3 ·
Start with checking your wheel speed sensors. Make sure neither one has any damage, debris or has come loose.
 
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#4 ·
Was your traction control set to a lower setting? I know people have used the 190/55 without issue, but the manual does warn against changing tire sizes.

I wonder if you might have hit some painted line and activated the Tc? When that happened, the system might have noticed the tire change and threw up a warning light?

The 17 service manual has a huge section about how to troubleshoot. I didnt have any problems finding a free one to download. Its probably not legal, but I've always been fascinated with prisons.
 
#7 ·
It was in automatic mode, F/1

I had been on a paved but wet county road with some muddy areas from agriculture runoff, the tires may have had some mud on them.

The tire may have slipped a little but I was not thinking about slipping since there have been no issues, I was paying more attention to crossing a major divided highway and getting up to speed. I was not however, accelerating hard by any means.

I have the 2017 manual, the engine warning light A is lit, the Power C and KTRC D are flashing but the electrical warning indicator B is not lit.

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#14 ·
I love Kenors idea...reboot it. That fixes most everything.

Were you here when Tyrmeltr was posting? He had a 2017-2019 bike that had been reflashed. He also had the 190/55 tire. Full exhaust, too. I might be wrong, but he may have also played with gearing?

Anyway, he had the same error. He chose to ignore it. He took his bike to the shop and they told him his throttle bodies were bad and wanted 1500 to replace them. I still think that's bs. He didnt do it. He covered the light with tape. For that cost, I dont blame him, but we never heard a solution.

Just thinking outloud with no real information..This is 100% bs with me talking out of my ***....but, suppose you are riding along. Minding your own business. All at once you hit that paint line, and the rear tire slips.

At that point, Tc kicks in to save your life. I suspect the tc program controls the secondary throttle plates. It really cant control the primary plates as that's cable controled... prior to 2020. This Tc tells them to close a certain amount so the tire can regain traction. Only when it does this, it doesnt get the reaction it thought it should get because the rear tire is too large. The system has no idea this tire is changed, so it blames the only thing it knows...the throttle position sensor.

This idea fit tyrmeltrs bike because he had a full akra exhaust. Now this same system is dealing with a hell of a lot more hp, per given rpm, than the stock bike as well as the tire profile being incorrect. It might be crazy, but this system is crazy. It let's you smash the brakes, mid turn, and live to tell. Inputs have to be pretty accurate to allow things like that.

The 2017 cbr1000rr Honda had this same issue with a 190/55 tire. Many bikes, like Aprilia, allow you to program the tire size into the ecu. There has to be a reason for that.
 
#15 ·
My Service Manual (2019) has a little more detail.

Code 62, P2100. Sub-throttle valve actuator malfunction, wiring open or short.

The actuator operates open and close of the sub-throttle valve by the pulse signal from the ECU. If the sub-throttle valve actuator fails (the signal is out to the usable range, wiring short or open), the ECU stops the current to the actuator.

As Kenors & RC have mentioned, you can try to clear the error code, but if there is an short/open/failure, the error code will probably come back.
 
#16 ·
The manual reads the same, I just didn't type the entire sentence.

I read the diagnostic section and just became more annoyed, diagnostics appears easy enough. Remove the air box to access the TB, fine, remove the fuel tank to access the air box, damn, OK fine, remove the plastics to remove the tank...fk fk fk

I don't have time for this crap, but eventually the extended warranty will expire and this will teach me something about my bike and and the knowledge helpful before I take it in for repair.

I appreciate the help though.

I hate taking my junk in for repair, warranty or not, I don't trust people and now I need to find a good Kawasaki shop because there is nothing local.
 
#17 ·
The problem with a failed secondary throttle sensor is this. This is the position they fail in. I doubt you would be able to go over 25mph with them in this position.Unless you had mods, this just isnt a part that causes problems. I've heard of you and Tyrmeltr...that's it. Maybe you guys just have bad luck, but?..
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#18 ·
Yep, and I am curious as well since I was running 70 for about 8 miles before dropping down to 40 through town for 3 miles and then back up to 60 for the last 4 miles to the house.

The bike seems to run fine.

Also ran a tire calculator and it appears to be a 2.9% difference in diameter and circumference between the 50 and 55, do you really feel this would screw up the ECM logic?
 
#20 ·
Yep, and I am curious as well since I was running 70 for about 8 miles before dropping down to 40 through town for 3 miles and then back up to 60 for the last 4 miles to the house.

The bike seems to run fine.

Also ran a tire calculator and it appears to be a 2.9% difference in diameter and circumference between the 50 and 55, do you really feel this would screw up the ECM logic?

No. Not really, but, the same tire change did screw up the Honda. It's the Bosh system, too. . 2.9 % is nothing, is it? Then again, five years ago if you told me the bike would have been smart enough to deal with me smashing the brakes, mid corner, I would have laughed.

That system has to be so f'ing good that kawasaki could go to court over it, and win. There would have to be a range to account for normal tire wear. Maybe if you are above that, maybe the 2.9% is huge? I'm sorry this is happening, but it is interesting. Especially when the bike runs well.
 
#19 ·
If it's under warranty, please take it in. I know that whatever you find out will help people for years to come.

I could believe my tire idea, except at 1500 miles on the tire, its worn. I would expect this to happen on the brand new tire. By now, is it really that much taller than a brand new 190/50? Unless this was the first time you activated the tc?
 
#21 ·
Down far enough to see the actuator operate the butterflys, key on they go WFO and then back to partially closed as seen in the photo, key on, key off, quietly and smoothly. Have a video but it will take a while to get it uploaded and linked.

I don't see a point in going further unless I can't get to the connectors that require volt/ohm testing.

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#22 ·
Definitely consider taking it in. Many of us are looking at this thread and trying to understand what it is.
 
#23 ·
I had to take the housing out to proceed with the ohm/voltage tests.

Starting with the connector to the actuator resistance is supposed to be 5.2-7.8 ohm.

Y/BK and P/BL were in range at 6.2-6.5
G and BK/O were low, about 1.3-1.5

The manual states to replace the TB assembly.

The schematic indicates all four wires go straight to the ECU.

If the resistance test passes the input voltage is next, it didn't pass but I will get some terminals to make the Kawasaki tool tomorrow. Charge the battery, put new batteries in the DVM and retest resistance. No harm since the bike is in pieces.

So far I have only torn a tank vent hose but what a PIA to change the air filter.

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#25 ·
I could not sleep so I kept digging, uncovered the ECU and performed the voltage and ground checks on the ECU.

Then the continuity check between the ABS Hydro Unit and ECU.

Then checked the ABS Hydro Unit wiring continuity with the front and rear wheel sensors

No issues with the above so to this point I have only found the resistance out of spec for the actuator connector back to the ECU.

It would be a bummer if the 190/55 is evil, I like the way it rides
 
#27 ·
#28 ·
I know this isnt our bike, and probably doesnt apply at all. With that said, someone in the know was explaining the race ecu kit for the Honda and said this about tires. With us having pretty much zero official information, maybe this Kawasaki system is similar?

"FWIW, the HRC ECU sports kit treats the tire diameter in 5mm increments so it might be reasonable to assume that the ECU is able to handle 5mm differences - but does that mean a range of 5mm, as in 2.5mm smaller to 2.5mm larger or the whole 5mm?"
 
#30 ·
I think you have diagnosed the actual issue with your ohm readings, and those readings match perfectly with the error code given. Now the question is what would have caused the component to have a resistance reading below the spec'd value.

Sounds like the resistance can be lower than spec for the secondary throttle plates to function normally, but the programming is probably looking for that range and is throwing a code because it's out of that range.

1. If it were tire size related, does that mean if the TC system did try to react to something, that it sent a higher voltage to move the secondary throttle plates faster because of the tire size and that burned the component causing a near short?
2. Does it have nothing to do with tire size at all and the component was faulty from the beginning?
3. Some other surge of power went to the actuator and caused the component fail in a near short.

Sadly, I can't see any dealership actually figuring out what happened, as the dealerships around me seem to have a hard time putting bikes together correctly in the first place.

I hope you get it resolved though.
 
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#31 · (Edited)
The only problem with the failed components theory is that the bike is not going to run correctly with the secondaires in the wrong position. Especially true as a burned up component, in that chain, would cause them to stop. They move a lot under normal riding conditions and you would feel that, immediately. The idea makes good sense, for sure, but it would be easy to notice, or feel.

Even on my 12...I had to re-install mine after a flash upgrade. Ne was slightly out of position and dragging. It's a disaster if they dont spin freely, or if they dont move at all.
 
#37 ·
I wasn't saying the component failed completely. It was proved that the resistance is less than spec, but it was also proven that the secondary throttle plates still fully cycle. So the actuator itself still operates when the resistance is below the spec'd level, but the programming is looking for a specific resistance range, hence the code pointing to the secondary throttle body actuator. The component has failed enough to cause the ECU to trigger a code, but not enough to keep the actuator from working. This would be a difference in what actually makes the actuator work vs what the ECU is expecting to see.
 
#33 ·
I guess I didn't post this earlier.

Murphyau, I am not convinced this is related to the tire diameter.

I hope it gets repaired soon too, since I am not relieved of the monthly payment! ;)

Battery fully charged, DVM battery replaced and harness made.

I re-checked resistance at the actuator connector and both sides are around 2 ohms and well below 5.2-7.8 range.

I also checked the voltage running to the actuator with the harness and that is low, around 3.2v and the range is 8.5-10.5v dropping to 0.

Strange how the actuator works fine on what appears to be 3.2v and quickly, key on key off. It is entirely possible the harness I made to duplicate the Kawasaki harness is bad or I am not performing the test properly but I doubt it. Pretty simple, wires connect the connector to the actuator to allow readings as if it was plugged in.

And per the FSM, I tested continuity between the actuator connector back to the ECU connector and resistance, continuity checked and resistance for all four wires was 0 ohms.

If the actuator is operated by the ECU, that also provides voltage to the actuator, maybe the ECU is fugged.
 
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