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LOL... happy to entertain, especially on a Friday.

Anyhow, there's nothing wrong with liking precision. That's why there are no shortage of folks open-carrying $25,000 custom 1911's at friend's backyard feast, where there are lots of other like-minded individuals packing similarly ostentatious BBQ guns. Those barrel bushings are so finely matched to the barrel, COVID19 virus couldn't slip a single strand of RNA through the gap. Yap, them cowboys like 'em tight.
 

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Discussion Starter · #83 ·
Quickshifters are not meant for low speed shifting. Also, at least with the BMW, the shifter needs to "learn" after some servicings. That's done by manually going through the gears, leaving the bike in each gear for 10 seconds, then shifting manually to the next-higher gear. Why? I have no idea, and it doesn't need doing except when major software updates are installed, or the battery is removed, or some such thing. The QS works like a dream on my RR, though...especially the auto-blip downshifting.
 

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I agree. A cheap switch is fine for the door on your ice maker. At worst, it might drop an extra cube.

This is what happens when people ,like Volfy, are in charge. Although their thinking is correct, it isn't correct in the context . The end results can be deadly. Typically, they never learn to think differently. In both cases, there were warnings, red flags,and bad ideas that no one stood up for.

Not so many videos where someone went the extra mile. Maybe they spent more money, time and energy making sure things were correct before the dumb ideas could be used.
.

 

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Never fails technicians always think they know better when they have have fix stuff that broke. Invariably the finger get pointed at the folks who designed the thing. Never mind that in the final analysis, there were always a myriad of other folks who have just as influential a hand in the final disastrous outcome - the bean counters, the owners, the management, the operators, the politicians, and yes, sometime the technicians.

Try quiting your job and come do mine. Ever design control panels used in hazardous areas on offshore platforms in the middle of North Sea storm subjected to 115mph winds? How about safety critical well control equipment that, if failed, could kill everybody on a drilling rig? I guess not. It's one thing to trade friendly jabs and poke fun at each other. It is quite another when you run out of argument and have to resort to accusing somebody as being criminally negligent. In almost 30yrs, not a single person has been hurt by systems with my name on it. I quit a company some 12yrs ago, precisely because upper management had done what I consider potentially causing my systems to be used in a dangerous manner.

Nobody should joke about safety. No even you, RC.
 

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Beautiful roads! I think if I was you and got tired of the S1000RR ergos, the two bikes at the top of my list would be a 2019 Ninja 1000 (Ivanized) or a new GSX-S1000GT as long as I could get the ECU hacked. The Euro-5 regulations are really putting a turd in the swimming pool!
Nobody talks about the S1000R. I had one for a couple of years. I had my 1199 Panigale at the same time. The S1000R performs extremely close to the liter bikes in every way. If foot peg ergos are a problem (they are not for me) the “single R” is not the way to go. They are just like the RR. Other than that it is far easier to do 300-400 mile days on.
 

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Didn't have a problem with seat until about 1-2 hours of riding. I got an airhawk seat to put on for longer rides which seems to help. Windscreen wise, I run the stock one on middle which seems to be the best for me, the air seams cleaner and hits upperchest and face (I'm 5'10"). At the high setting I found it too turbulent for long term riding, but should be good when winter arrives here again. I'll probably get a Puig screen at some point for a bit cleaner air as my helmet (Shark Speed R) is rather noisy with the wind. Its not buffeting my head, but I certainly hear it!


Finally...tell me what you DON'T like about the SX. I'm already leaning toward it because of the things people DO like.
Its heavy. I did come from an Mt-07 which was 40kg (88lbs) lighter, so I notice it more. If I'm doing sub 30km/hr (20mph) I really feel the weight, above that its totally fine and glides along effortlessly. With a bad back and shoulders, the sitting position is a bit too leant forward for my liking, but I am hoping that the murphs risers will fix this issue. At the moment, trying to steer a 500lb bike while leaning forward with weight on my wrists is a lot of trouble for me personally, and the only big negative that I have with the bike.
 

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Didn't have a problem with seat until about 1-2 hours of riding. I got an airhawk seat to put on for longer rides which seems to help. Windscreen wise, I run the stock one on middle which seems to be the best for me, the air seams cleaner and hits upperchest and face (I'm 5'10"). At the high setting I found it too turbulent for long term riding, but should be good when winter arrives here again. I'll probably get a Puig screen at some point for a bit cleaner air as my helmet (Shark Speed R) is rather noisy with the wind. Its not buffeting my head, but I certainly hear it!




Its heavy. I did come from an Mt-07 which was 40kg (88lbs) lighter, so I notice it more. If I'm doing sub 30km/hr (20mph) I really feel the weight, above that its totally fine and glides along effortlessly. With a bad back and shoulders, the sitting position is a bit too leant forward for my liking, but I am hoping that the murphs risers will fix this issue. At the moment, trying to steer a 500lb bike while leaning forward with weight on my wrists is a lot of trouble for me personally, and the only big negative that I have with the bike.
Yikes, I can’t picture your second paragraph at all. But we all have our own issues.
 

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Nobody talks about the S1000R. I had one for a couple of years. I had my 1199 Panigale at the same time. The S1000R performs extremely close to the liter bikes in every way. If foot peg ergos are a problem (they are not for me) the “single R” is not the way to go. They are just like the RR. Other than that it is far easier to do 300-400 mile days on.
The S1000R is a great bike. So is the Ducati Street Fighter and the Tuono V4. Amazing motorcycles if you can handle the ergos.

Cost always plays into the quality of parts used on bike. My 890R has some really cheap, plasticy parts where KTM can get away with it. Some bikes just have better designed trannys than others. What I've noticed universally is that bikes without quick shifters that shift well without the clutch, shift very well with quick shifters and bikes without quick shifters that don't shift well without the clutch, don't shift well with quick shifters either. I REALLY want to try an N1K with a quick shifter to verify for myself but based on how my N1K shifts without the clutch, I'm thinking it doesn't shift the best with a quick shifter. My 675 Daytona without a QS and not using the clutch shifts better than my KTM with the QS.
 

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The S1000R is a great bike. So is the Ducati Street Fighter and the Tuono V4. Amazing motorcycles if you can handle the ergos.

Cost always plays into the quality of parts used on bike. My 890R has some really cheap, plasticy parts where KTM can get away with it. Some bikes just have better designed trannys than others. What I've noticed universally is that bikes without quick shifters that shift well without the clutch, shift very well with quick shifters and bikes without quick shifters that don't shift well without the clutch, don't shift well with quick shifters either. I REALLY want to try an N1K with a quick shifter to verify for myself but based on how my N1K shifts without the clutch, I'm thinking it doesn't shift the best with a quick shifter. My 675 Daytona without a QS and not using the clutch shifts better than my KTM with the QS.
Im not really a fan of quick shifters myself. But for comparison, I have actually owned four motorcycles with them. Three of them were upshift only. The Ninja is the worst. But truthfully, my 2020 Ninja is a mediocre shifting bike with the clutch too.

The best were the Ducati and S1000R. The SuperDuke GT was okay, but not great.

I don’t get that you have to have the throttle closed to downshift. I’ve done it a number of times, but it never does much for me. i very seldom upshift the Ninja with the quick shifter.

When I bought my CBR, I thought I would add it. It’s a dealer accessory for that bike. Not long after I bought that bike we spent a shitload of money on a new house, so the quick shifter never happened. The only time I miss it is when I’m wide open at about 13,000 RPM in first gear and am getting ready to give up a lot of my grip on the left side to pull the clutch in :). Redline is 14,000. Things are happening fast!
 

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I've had two CBRs and stock it was very difficult to race launch and redline the gears WOT. After doing the suspension they were night and day. I almost felt like I could do it with one hand. My Ninja was the same way. I was VERY pleasantly surprised with the Ninja after I did the suspension. Night and day.
 

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Overall a great bike but if I had to find a few flaws they would be the following.
1. High center of gravity for weight on tight turns (front brake dive until you break it in)
2. Little to far forward on arm position (add murphy risers)
3. TFT is great but lack of support for music, phone, etc is a real letdown. (add evotech & quadlock charger)
4. Stock exhaust sounds like weezing when reving. (add Ixil exhaust tip)
 

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Volfy, if I were to do your job, your company would make money, and thrive instead of where they are now. I have seen times when technicians think they know more than engineers. This typically happens AFTER the engineers ideas, and designs have failed. Not before. If it's before, it's because we have seen it before, and know it won't work. At that point, it obvious the engineer has no idea. Someone needs to step up.

Good engineers will listen, and understand reason. It doesn't surprise me that you've seen this sort of thing ,before. You are set in your ways, and most of those ways are incorrect and have thinking errors...or, the context is not correct for the event.

The condo collapse is the perfect example of this. An engineer cut corners, and reduced costs. The techs built what they were tokd to build. Too bad none of them stood up to bad designs.

The Space Shuttle was more about staying on schedule, and mishandled part storage. Also a bit of engineer cheapness, or reluctance to change. The O ring needed a redesign, and it also needed to be stored differently than it was being stored. Both engineering mistakes.
 
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I remember one "engineer" I was forced to work with. We were protecting Nuclear waste. A simple nitrogen blanket was all we had to do. Easy.

Engineer Pete needed to be extra safe. He spends a cut off point of -20 instead of the more common -40. The higher number had worked well, for the previous 17 years. If the system ever say -20, this flow would stop. There were other safeguards in mind, but this wasn't a great idea, so I call him.

Pete, you are using the -20 degree low temps. Are you sure you don't want -40. I have them, and would not need to order them.....

Pete knows better. He's the educated one. "Yes, I want -20. Salt Lake does not get colder than that."

Yes Pete, that is true. However, your account is not in Salt Lake. It is in the west desert. It's a higher elevation. This site is also out in the open. Last year it did see -....

Ok..ok. we will use the -20. I'll send you an e mail that summarizes the conversation. I know you know how these work, but remember that it is closed at -20. It's not an electronic switch. It opens,and closes based on a bi-metal switch. Because of that, it's going to start closing at -10ish...You good with that?

So, fast forward. I'm watching the Steelers-browns playoff game, and my phone rings. Clean H****rs has shut down. The ambient temp is -22 . Craziest game,ever. The score changed so quickly, without my radio signal was cutting out.

Ring ring...oh yes, Pete I in Houston.Sorry to bother you Pete, but..........no, I will not open the bypass. Remember the document we had sign? The one where I said I would not knowingly bypass a safety system? Well, I know and your drawings show -20 as a problem...so, no. Hell no. Sure...yes, I still have the -40 parts. I'll forward you my e mail when I talked about this. It might help you as you apply for the MOC. You know....speed things up. Yes. Yes. I know they will be shut down. It's too bad this couldn't have been avoided, isn't it? Remember how I only mentioned this as an issue? No problem with the other parts of the install?

This was normal. Most of the engineers were well educated and smart. Some Ladies who were twice as good as the guys. Every female engineer I worked with was excellent. Mostly because they didn't let pride get in the way. A female engineer wasn't afraid to admit they could not install a water heater, or connect pipe. The guys were. If I were hiring engineers, I would descriminate. Female, only. More trustworthy, honest,and on average,had more common sense.


 
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RC, your MO is all too predictable. You make a statement about the stock QS actuator being cheap & substandard (post #77). I reply with an opinion to the contrary and gave a succinct example of how "cheap" does not always equate to "less"(post #79). You realize your argument is weak, so instead of offering a strong rebuttal, you attack me personally, in hopes of obfuscating your obviously indefensible position.

So tell us, RC, exactly why and how the stock QS assembly is cheap and substandard?

1. Have you read the Project Definition given to Kawi engineering for this QS system? Do you know/understand the design requirement? Budget constraints? Environmental/quality/regulatory standards to be met? System interface specifications?

2. Have you studied the Engineering Specifications Kawi engineering developed in response to the above Project Definition given to them?

3. Have you qualified every component in that QS assembly?

4. Have you qualified the microswitch Kawi engineers selected? What are its mechanical characteristics? How well do those characteristics work with the OEM QS controller - both HW and SW - Kawi engineers designed (for example, the debounce circuit)?

5. Concurrently, have you qualified the nice pretty more-expensive microswitches you saw and like better in McMasters? What are their mechanical characteristics? How well do those characteristics work with the OEM QS controller - both HW and SW - Kawi engineers designed (for example, the debounce circuit)?

6. Do you understand that in a control system, faster response isn't always more desirable? Every component's response characteristics has an influence on the overall transfer function of the system. Too fast response could be just as bad as too slow response, just as too fast sampling & control output interval can be just as destabilizing as too slow an interval. Have you qualified these switches to understand their impact on system response and stability?



Go ahead... explain yourself. Shower us with your brilliance. Show us that you are not just a disgruntled tech that thinks your troubles at every job you ever had is always somebody else's fault and not caused by your petty contempt for engineers you've had to work with.
 

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Engineer Pete needed to be extra safe. He spends a cut off point of -20 instead of the more common -40. The higher number had worked well, for the previous 17 years. If the system ever say -20, this flow would stop. There were other safeguards in mind, but this wasn't a great idea, so I call him.
You do know that -20 is higher than -40 right? If the higher number (-20) worked well for 17 years but it was an issue why didn't you try to get it changed earlier?
 

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Volfy, you made some really good, accurate points. You usually do, but the context is wrong. You would be 100% correct except for one small, tiny detail .

A detail that poor engineers have a difficult time understanding. They will get sidetracked on what could have been been vs reality.

That tiny detail you ignored is that it doesn't work very well. A quick shifter that won't quick shift isn't a great part to try and defend. The rear brake would have been a better choice.

When a cheap part doesn't work very well, a good engineer would go to step 2 and look at the fallout from this bad part.
 
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You do know that -20 is higher than -40 right?

If the higher number (-20) worked well for 17 years but it was an issue why didn't you try to get it changed earlier?
I meant lower temp, higher number, -40 was the setting that worked, without fail.

That's the exact conversation we had. When I saw his new, -20 figure, I called to verify because I thought we made that same mistake.

I was friends with most of the engineers. Most of them were excellent and you could blindly follow any order or spec they gave you.

Some I had to deal with just like this. Listen to a 45 minute explanation of why......

I would let them finish, pause and say

IT DID NOT WORK.
 

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Volfy, you made some really good, accurate points. You usually do, but the context is wrong. You would be 100% correct except for one small, tiny detail .

A detail that poor engineers have a difficult time understanding. They will get sidetracked on what could have been been vs reality.

That tiny detail you ignored is that it doesn't work very well. A quick shifter that won't quick shift isn't a great part to try and defend. The rear brake would have been a better choice.

When a cheap part doesn't work very well, a good engineer would go to step 2 and look at the fallout from this bad part.
"Doesn't work very well", huh? Explain that. What about it doesn't work well? How is the allegedly "not working well" precipitously caused by the use of a cheap components (vis-à-vis the micro switch)? What is the reported failure rate of said QS? What are the MTBF of the switch you so disliked?

C'mon now... you didn't go through this big ol' gyration based solely on an unsubstantiated, unjustified, unprofessional opinion, did ya?

C'mon now... explain yourself. We all want to know.
 
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So just to have a little fun, maybe the quick shifter mechanism is fine, but the ECU is not well set up. Maybe it does not momentarily “kill” the engine quickly enough, or for the ideal duration? Instead of the hardware engineering being the problem it could be a software engineer problem or maybe the test rider did not accurately communicate that it still needed some tweaking.
 
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