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This one time, at Band Camp, Rock was mean to me. He was really mean and he called me a filthy-c word.

I told his Mom.

Its sad because your behavior doesnt make the poor flash better. Thank god Ivan released his when he did. His doing that, to the Ninja 1000 world is very similar to the day the Covid vaccine is available to humans. Yes, we had to wait a while, and many good ecu's died in the process, but we have to be thankful for the ones we can save and not look to the past.
 

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Thanks to you I still have the taste of soap in my mouth!
 

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2017 Yamaha FZ-10 2017 Suzuki M109R
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I understand your point about cutting into the customer's ECU vs purchasing an ECU to do the testing, and must say, I have to agree. But I don't believe that, in any way, correlates to a poor flash. With the experience I had this summer on my M109r with Ivan's flash and a flash using the Woolich software, I am 100% convinced that a tune created with the Woolich software can be just as good, if not better than Ivan's tune. Maybe Ivan's software guy was able to tap into certain things that other tuning software couldn't a few years ago, like prior to Woolich having the Fuel Cut option and Ignition Dwell, etc..... But now, I don't think Ivan has any more visibility to anything in the ECU than any other tuner. I think it now comes down to the tuners experience, knowledge and drive to create a great tune for their customers. I have first-had experience with Ivan's flash and a Woolich flash on the same bike with no changes other than the ECU flash. While I appreciate your love for Ivan's flash, and I completely agree, having two other current bikes flashed by Ivan, I don't feel like it is justified to say a flash is "poor" based on how they obtain the ECU information and/or you don't have first-hand experience with that particular tuner's flash. As this could push people away from getting a perfectly good flash for a bike that Ivan does not have a flash for. I'm not defending 2Wheel, this would be true for any tuner. I don't have an N1K, but I do have experience ECU flashing and I do have first-hand experience with both Woolich and Ivan's flash, so I feel like I am able to provide general insight on the subject, but not necessarily pertaining to the N1K. If I get a new bike or someone asks me where they can get their ECU flashed, the first place I look is Ivan's, but that doesn't mean all other tunes are poor.
 
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You have no idea what first hand info I have, what ECU's I've tried, or what pieces I own. I'm not going there. I have an entire shelf covered in brake calipers, and rotors. Spending 200 on a spare ecu never bothered me .

I'm not afraid to spend money to find the best.
I dont say things for the fun of it. Well, except when messing with Motoman. Then I do, and then I exaggerate. The building I posted wasnt Ivans shop. That was a new Amazon warehouse. In that context I said poor work. You got the best someone could offer with software that wont/cant compete. Of course that doesnt have to mean poor, or bad, but it's not going to be the best.

The flash kits are popular and they do a decent job with flashing. But, to say they are on par with what Ivan offers is LOL funny. That argument has been had a thousand times, and not once has it ever been found to be true. Read the reviews I didnt post. Look at the dyno charts I had nothing to do with. You get a better flash, more power, and higher quality work. Often times it's not a hundred times better, but so far, no one has equaled it. The same argument t happened in the concours 14 in 2017. The established guy had flashed hundreds and people loved it. The people who really cared paid Ivan another 350 for his flash. He flashed over hundreds of them. At one time he showed a stack of receipts. No one went back to the established flash. That guy is not trying to hustle business on the Versys 1000 forum.

There is a uk company who has made a fortune "flashing" ecu's. The problem is, they dont actually do anything. Yes, they have good reviews. Theres a mental aspect at play when people do things themselves. A good example of this is in another thread here. Notice how the owner is please with himself after cutting off 1/3 mounts from his case guard. Sure, any tip over will destroy his frame, but hes happy.

When someone owns their own dyno, their own software, their own Datalogue equipment, the price is easily 100k. Why would anyone spend that money if they could get the same result with a 450.00 flash cable and build a business around a license fee? That would be stupid.

When that same person also has 9 years of experience with that specific bike, and more involved software, they will always be able to do a better job than you can with your own O2 sensor and laptop. Let's hope so, right? Especially when they spend years developing very specific bikes....not every bike like the others do.
 

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You have no idea what first hand info I have, what ECU's I've tried, or what pieces I own. I'm not going there. I have an entire shelf covered in brake calipers, and rotors. Spending 200 on a spare ecu never bothered me .

I'm not afraid to spend money to find the best.
I dont say things for the fun of it. Well, except when messing with Motoman. Then I do, and then I exaggerate. The building I posted wasnt Ivans shop. That was a new Amazon warehouse. In that context I said poor work. You got the best someone could offer with software that wont/cant compete. Of course that doesnt have to mean poor, or bad, but it's not going to be the best.

The flash kits are popular and they do a decent job with flashing. But, to say they are on par with what Ivan offers is LOL funny. That argument has been had a thousand times, and not once has it ever been found to be true. Read the reviews I didnt post. Look at the dyno charts I had nothing to do with. You get a better flash, more power, and higher quality work. Often times it's not a hundred times better, but so far, no one has equaled it. The same argument t happened in the concours 14 in 2017. The established guy had flashed hundreds and people loved it. The people who really cared paid Ivan another 350 for his flash. He flashed over hundreds of them. At one time he showed a stack of receipts. No one went back to the established flash. That guy is not trying to hustle business on the Versys 1000 forum.

There is a uk company who has made a fortune "flashing" ecu's. The problem is, they dont actually do anything. Yes, they have good reviews. Theres a mental aspect at play when people do things themselves. A good example of this is in another thread here. Notice how the owner is please with himself after cutting off 1/3 mounts from his case guard. Sure, any tip over will destroy his frame, but hes happy.

When someone owns their own dyno, their own software, their own Datalogue equipment, the price is easily 100k. Why would anyone spend that money if they could get the same result with a 450.00 flash cable and build a business around a license fee? That would be stupid.

When that same person also has 9 years of experience with that specific bike, and more involved software, they will always be able to do a better job than you can with your own O2 sensor and laptop. Let's hope so, right? Especially when they spend years developing very specific bikes....not every bike like the others do.

The M109R forum member owns an M109R, races and purchased his own dyno. He has spent several years perfecting the tune for the M109R, and only the M109R. Doesn't really matter how many parts or ECU's you have laying around, it matters if you have experience with an ECU flash from the specific tuner being discussed.

Like I said, the two different flashes behaved exactly the same. it wasn't like I rode with one flash, let the bike sit for a week, then rode with the other flash. I purchased a 2nd ECU so I could try the tunes back to back.

I'm also fine with making people aware of "shady" tuners if there is data to back it up, because that what these forums are for. But I don't agree with blanket statements saying the tuners or software can't compare just because it's not Ivan's tune.
 

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This software is getting into an area where I'm not willing to go. I will say I heard and verified the evidence, and it was 100% true. Ivan can help you if that's something you want to find out more about. Or, believe you own its equal...really, none of that matters to me and wont make me money.

Some common sense should apply. The cost difference is too great to ignore. Why would someone build their own software if that could be purchased for 772.00 and be equal?

That would be like choosing to build your own pick up truck when Ford or Chevy has them for sale, ready to go. Especially when a business could buy 2 or 3 cables and have the ability to flash every Kawasaki made, since about 2006. Notice how many businesses did do this. This let's you flash bikes before you've ever seen one. Think of the money you could make. If it worked as well, that ability to flash every kawasaki would be impossible to not go for if you could get the same result.

Now, even if the above can be explained, let's look at time. People have been asking for this flash since late 2016 when the bike was released. If he bought the cable, he could have flashed them in 2017. Instead, he did it his way and it delayed the process almost 4 years? No one does that if theres a better or equal option.
 

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When was the last time you discussed the software with Ivan?
Have you opened a .bin file in the latest version of Woolich to see what options are available?
Have you physically compared the two?

I'm not saying every tuner can build a comparable tune to Ivan's with the Woolich software anymore than I am saying any tuner who had access to Ivan's software (if possible) would be able to produce the same results Ivan does.

In my case, with my specific bike, I ran both Ivan's tune and a tune built with Woolich. If Ivan's software does allow access to parameters that others cannot access, there was absolutely no discernable difference between the two tunes. The only difference was that the Woolich tune performed better (in my opinion) in the upper rpm range. Which brings me back to the point, the Woolich software in the hands of the tuner that built the flash for the M109R produced a tune that was just as good, and slightly better, than Ivan's tune. Keep in mind, I am not referring to the specific software, I am talking about the tune itself. Whether or not Ivan's software still has more capabilities than others, the actual riding experience between the two flashes I have for the M109R were identical.

All throttle positions were perfect, both tunes pulled great all the way up, idle was nice and steady. The only issue with both tunes was that I had surging in the 3K - 3.75K range which I attribute to the intakes I have. Steady cruise was perfect with both tunes as long as I was out of that rpm range.

The M109R community got lucky enough to have a tuner that owns and races his M109R as well as purchased his own dyno. Any improvements he makes/finds with his racing, make it into his tunes. The really nice part is that he also wants all the throttle positions to be perfect, not just WOT.

In many ways, he is to the M1009R community what Ivan is to the N1K community. But again, that comes down to the tuners themselves and their ability, experience and drive to want to turn out a quality product to their customers.

If it were reversed and Ivan drag raced the M109R and the M109R forum member only did his WOT tuning on a dyno, I would expect Ivan's tune to be better in the upper rpm range because he would be gathering real-word data, not just static data on a dyno. I am in now way trying to say anything negative about Ivan's tune, just that the M109R tuner races his bike and it shows in his tune.
 

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I dont have much, if any experience with a big v twin. I was never a fan of them. I've ridden some high end Harleys, Honda Shadows and such. I grew up on two strokes and always liked things that would rev.

With that said, one of those big v twins, with excellent throttle response, has to be fun. I think I could own a 109r. I like its look, and its engine looks like a hell of a lot of fun.

I'm not going into software specifics as there really is no upside, for me to do so. People will make their own choices, and none of that has anything to do with me.
 

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For me, the 109R was the perfect transition from sport/naked bike to a "muscle" cruiser. I love the look and I love that it will rev to 7.5K when most big v-twins redline around 4K-5K. I had test ridden others and absolutely hated having to shift so early. The willingness of the 109R to rev is one of the reasons I have it. The ECU flash makes it feel 1st gen vmax-ish.
 

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I'm not speaking out of any direct knowledge, just reasonable supposition. The 109 frankly may not have the issues the NInja has so the "fixes" may not be as profound and thus a simpler flash to create. It's like giving a flue shot: A nurse can give one just as good as a Dr. can. Now when it gets to spinal surgery, that's a different story.

As to real world data, Ivan may not be taking the NInja to a track, but he rides it around quite a bit. That's real world enough for me. Given that he was up in my area until his recent move to Carolina. and the mountain road his shop was on, I have a really good idea of what kind of riding he was doing with it. Sort of the same riding I do with mine. Maybe not as much highway. He also rode both my NInjas around a bit after flashing them, and I rode his, to make sure everything was Kosher.
Call me crazy, but that's pretty hands on.

One more thing. There's allot less "firing order confusion" (intentional to create heat) between a 4 cylinder than there is with a twin. Heck, it's not even an issue with a twin. Just less things to contend with on a twin, then a dumbed down sport bike engine.
So if your cruiser tuner (can't believe we're even discussing this here) matched Ivan's flash, that's sort of like saying I can dunk a basketball as good as Lebron James when I have a 6 foot high net as opposed to 10. I'd be curious what this fellow would do with the NInja engine. If he exactly duplicated it, then for sure your argument would have merit.
 

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I guess that may be true, but unless you know for sure the M109R is less complicated, I'm not sure there is an argument. Believe it or not, the M109R has 4 spark plugs. One with a COP on top of each cylinder and another on the outer side of each cylinder fired by a separate coil for each. Like I said, his tune felt better in the upper RPM, which I would attribute to gathering data while drag racing, that makes sense. There was no difference in the lower rpm. If I lived in Florida, I'm sure the M109R tuner would ride mine around and address the issue mine had in the 3K-3.75K rpm range, but that isn't that case. The 109 also has heat related issues that have to be considered due to the rear cylinder being more enclosed than the front cylinder.

It's all good, whether we're talking about an M109R or an N1K, we are discussing the ECU flash, so that's the info that's important.
 

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I always respected these people. They use the kit, and are charging you 75.00 to a maximum of 200. That's fair for the quality of work performed. No idea if they flash a ninja, but several concours 14 owners reported positive results. They are honest about what they are selling and charging a reasonable price for what they have.

 

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I think that is who I originally purchased the flashing harness through years ago when I started playing around with flashing my B-King. Back when ECUeditor was free for Suzuki bikes.
 

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It's all good, whether we're talking about an M109R or an N1K, we are discussing the ECU flash, so that's the info that's important.
I guess you guys may have been discussing tuners in general, but given the discussion it was in the context of the Ninja. And addiitonal info that's important, but was alluded to as otherwise, is that Ivan has real world experience with his tunes. Albeit in the context of his particular riding.
 

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Understood. It made sense in my head that I was only referring to the "real world experience" as it pertains to the upper rpm range of the flash from the M109R tuner because he drag races, not that Ivan didn't or doesn't ride the bikes he tunes also. I could have phrased it better or been more clear.
 

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Kratos, I get the feeling you are one of the good guys. You are not full of bs, and dont mind discussing things, or even yelling at someone. With that in mind, dont feel the need to explain yourself. It's just not needed. Not as if my opinion matters, and not as if you should care, but as far as I'm concerned, you are good.

He buys every bike he flashes. Unless someone wanted to loan him a bike for 2 yrs and 150 +dyno runs.

Notice the dyno sheets here. If you look in the upper corner, it says, "runfile_xxx" . That's how many dyno runs have been performed on the specific bike. The highest I see on the concours 14 flash is runfile_135. The ninja showed 70, back in 2012. Its not all dyno work as the bikes also get ridden with all the equipment attached. I wanted to say what the equipment is called, but spell check keeps changing that word to "Leonora "...,.a name that is reserved for Kenors. If I address him, by name, I always have to go back and change it from Lenora.

The z900rs page shows 297. Many places block that out because they dont want someone to see a number 1 or 2.

I wish. I wish I could tune my own ECU's to that standard. The ability to screw with an ecu would have kept me entertained and saved me thousands in un needed hop up parts. I felt like a dumb *** when I was at the airport collecting my rear brake carrier from DHL, japan division. Although, I felt less foolish/dim witted when I see that Honda copied me and used the same caliper on their new 2020 cbr 1000rr-r

I want this.


 

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Ivan said the 2017 engine is almost identical to the 2014-2016 engine. Dyno charts are the same. The only difference is the 2017 bikes were more restricted at low rpm.

You can also see where the header is still very restrictive and roesnt work very well at high rpm, as well as low. Notice the low end torque boost at around 3000 rpm. A good header adds a lot of power aand torque at any useable rpm range.
30023
30024
 

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That's good info, I didn't even think about those numbers relating to the number of dyno runs.

I hear ya, I would love to have my own dyno and be able to tune to my own exacting standards. I really enjoyed trying the autotune thing, but became frustrated with the ever changing throttle positions outside of cruising and WOT. Quickly became apparent that you need a mixture of dyno tuning as well as actual riding to create a proper tune. The M109R tuner said his biggest issue is finding a place to set up his dyno where people don't complain about the noise.
 

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I liked my autotune.......it was entertaining.

Step 1. Select your target fuel ratio. Simple. Type in some numbers. Oh crap, what numbers? I dont have a dyno, so I'll guess. I'm sure 13.2 will be awesome..or 13.3. Wait, the one guy said 13.1.....

Step 2......Hum, I've spent 300.00 and and I'm still guessing ? I still dont regret buying mine. I never made a map that was good, but it was fun to try.
 
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