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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hey guys. Im pretty new here so forgive me as I know this question has been asked before but hasn't been touched on recently. I have a 2011 1000 that I bought this past summer from an older guy who put 10,000 km on it and put it away in a closet. Its literally like mint. After putting a few miles on it at the end of summer I discovered the rear brake issues it seems these bikes have. Before putting the bike away i cleaned and serviced the brakes and bled the lines with fresh fluid. I would like to change the pads and im hoping this will make a big improvement.

My thoughts are to go with the EBC HH sintered pads as they seem pretty popular and it seems most who try them really like them. They are much easier for me to get then galfers. Im just curious what you guys think about going HH double sintered vs say a semi sintered pad? Ive heard some saying its too much on the rear and others saying to go HH all the way around. I am aware that the HH pads are much stronger however some are saying they are too strong and make it easy to lock up the back while others are saying even with HH pads you still have to work hard to lock her up.

What do you guys think? Right now Im leaning towards HH front and rear and removing the spring as I hear this gives much better feed back? Ive been riding bikes for twenty years and I have never had a bike with ABS so I am pretty good with threshold braking. Locking the back isn't a huge concern unless the HH pads make it lock even with slight pressure which would make it unusable. Whats the Story on this?
 

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I think you will be fine with HH pads front and rear. I had used the EBC HH pads on a previous bike with no issues and they did perform better than stock. If you don't mind the price, Vesrah RJL are about as good as you can get for street use.
 

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The Vesrah rjl are a better pad, but like Johnny said, it's more money.

For the money, this Vesrah CT pad is tough to beat. It might be an extra 20.00 vs ebc, but is a far better pad. They are more quiet, and leave less dust behind. I've been using these on my concours 14, and the feel is excellent. It's a good step up from either stock or ebc, for not that much more money. If you try these, I think your ebc days will be over.

On a 2011, you will be surprised at how well these perform vs stock. The stock 2011-13 pads were pretty weak and mild in comparison.

https://www.kurveygirl.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=341_384_434&products_id=781
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Hey guys thank you for the advice. Its appreciated. So I would love the versa pads but two problems. They aren't readily available here in Canada at least on line and my god the price is nearly double that of the ebc when you factor in duties and shipping. The fronts alone are over 200 dollars. It is my understanding that the Vserah RJI pads are roughly the equivalent of the The EBC HH which are 131 for an entire set front and back. Now Im not one to be cheap and I trust the opinion that the Vesrah pads are better then the EBC pads BUT how much better is the question. It likely subjective but I would be doubtful they are 200 dollars better if you know what I mean. I just cant justify that when the EBC HH pads are know to be a very very good pad with a lot of stopping power that will bring me a much better performance over stock. over 300 dollars for a set shipped to my door is just too big of a pill to swallow. Unless anyone here knows where I can get them in Canada for a more reasonable price?
 

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I've got a wide selection of FRONT brake pads (EBC, Vesrah, etc. , all around 75% pad or more) I'll make you a deal on. Then you can test and review at your pleasure.......... ;-)
 

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I am a huge fan of the Carbon Lorraine pads, now called CL. Their street pads are just as good as Vesra street pads (IMHO) and their race pads are almost as good. I run CL street on my GF's Ninja 1000 and also have them on my GSXR1000 which I have 2015+ CBR1000RR calipers on. The CBR calipers are essentially the same Tokiko calipers as the N1K calipers. I have ran the CL race pads on my track bike, but upgraded those calipers so I have to run Brembo Z04 in those.

I have three problems with EBC HH pads. They are messy, tear up rotors quickly and the pads warp if you push the brakes hard. CL is around the same price as EBC and much better overall.

I am pretty sure the CL pad part numbers are:
1183 front
2381 rear
Please confirm the part numbers. They cost ~$200 a set. Spiegler carries them.

Just make sure to clean the old pad material off your rotors before running new ones and bed them properly. I use scotchbrite pads on a DA to clean my rotors.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Ok so In researching the EBC HH pads I found this on their website. Its seems they have update the pad material to be easier on the rotors and eliminate noise.

"We took out several other particles which our competitors still use which caused massive disc damage and created our launch material. After five years and millions of sets sold we upgraded the formulation again to our SB101C material which completely eliminated BRAKE NOISE, improved the pads HEAT CYCLING CAPABILITY and improved feel. What we have today for the faster rider is the pinnacle of sintered copper alloy engineering, researched and tested in our own laboratories by engineers with over 50 years experience in sintered pad technology."

I am going to take a look into the CL pads that 57x mentioned. I have heard good things about Carbon Lorraine in past but haven't done any research on them. Perhaps they are the middle ground between the Vesrah pads and the EBC pads. What scares me most about the EBC pads is the claims of excessive rotor wear. I want to upgrade the stopping power of the bike but I dont want to destroy my rotors in a season or two doing so.
 

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The "update" happened a long time ago. It's not new by any means, and it did not make them a quality pad. You dont have to buy Vesrah. I'm plan on trying some cl pads, eventually, just never anything from ebc, ever.

I would choose Galfer before ebc if that's all that was available. Rear pads last a long time. Meaning, if you buy junk, you have to work with junk for a long time. How cheap are they when they damage your rotors, or you end up buying two sets because the backing plate warps?

Even if you do have to pay more, its worth buying something with better quality.

Search ebay canada for vesrah pads for the zx10. We use the same part numbers for our bike and the same pads. That would be for the 2008-2015 zx10. NOT the later bikes.

The vesrah pads there are not the high end rjl, but they are still better than ebc hh
 

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"Better" is a relative term and requires explicit qualification as to HOW and in what aspect(s) does one item outperform another. One characteristic of the EBC HH pads, and sintered metallic pads of this type in general, is a rather aggressive initial bite. Some rides like this, while others prefer a more linear and progressive pad. No right or wrong. Just preferences and application requirement.

Another trait, somewhat related to above, is that HH doesn't require extended warming up to work well. The flip side to this is, under severe track/racing conditions, it might overheat and fade. However, if you ride street hard enough to cause this, you have way worse things to worry about.

So... is EBC HH a better pad? To me, it depends on the intended/primary usage. IMO, it is an excellent pad for performance street bike, as well as entry level to maybe intermediate track use.

The rear wheel lock-up thing is a red herring. Most rear brakes are weak enough that a more aggressive pad couldn't possibly turn it into a monster performer. Besides, if your rear tire suck, or you pull enough front brake to lift the rear, what rear pad material you have on won't make much difference.
 

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Volfy makes a good point about what constitutes better performance. The thing I liked about the Vesrah is that they are very linear which makes them easy to modulate, but they still provide excellent braking over stock pads. The only negative thing about them I could find, is that they like a bit of heat to perform their best, but that usually comes after the first couple of normal applications of the brake...….so really no big deal.

Just to make things a bit more confusing, DP brand pads are another to consider. I liked them better than the EBC and they are not expensive. They worked well with the only negative thing being that they did squeal a tiny bit at times.
 

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The guy started the thread hoping to improve his rear brake. He didnt ask about the front brake, or brake pads in general.

He was then able to get a specific answer from someone who had tried the ebc HH pad, in the application he was asking about (the rear brake) and no, it wasnt the answer to better rear brake performance. It has a gritty feel, it causes a lot of brake dust, and it tears up the rotor. It had more power, but poor feel. It also squeaks loudly enough to be embarrassing. Even at that it's a better pad than our stock pad, but that should not be excellent performance for anyone.

I agree, dp is a better choice as is galfer, cl, etc...just not ebc. I've had good luck with their pads, too.
 

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The real reason this rear brake sucks is because the master cylinder ratio doesn't match up well with the caliper piston size. That "correct" ratio has been known since the 70's , or earlier, when disc brakes started appearing on motorcycles and cars, and we dont have that. Kawasaki built a system that is very difficult to lock up. The front doesnt have this problem. When that ratio is correct, it does allow you more room to experiment with marginal pads.

There is no cheap fix for the rear brake issue without replacing the master cylinder and caliper. Pads are only going to do so much, but a premium grade pad will help.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Hey guys. I didnt mean to start a war on which pads are best. In my opinion kawasaki designed this bike for sport touring use and not for track days. If you want a track bike you dont buy a ninja 1000. You buy a zx 10 or a fire blade. Hence the brakes that were chosen were chosen to be effective and safe for street use. Its obvious they engineered the rear brake for an abundant of safety and chose to error on the side of caution with respect to lock up. Im not interested in track use. Im not interested in abusing any pad or the bike n general by riding it on a track. For the past several days I have been doing a lot of research. For street riding it doesnt matter if you go with EBC, Versah, Brembo, CL, or any of the major players. Virtually any sintered pad will be an improvement over the stock pads and all of them make a quality pad in the street range. It would seem there are those where who have a problem with EBC specifically. Haters I would say. With respect to that I can say this. EBC have should millions of the HH pads. It is their most popular pad. It is used on the track and on the street to great effectiveness. In fact if i look at the reviews from those on amazon and those on fortnine.ca there are hundreds and hundreds of favourable reviews on those pads and very few negative ones. The negative reviews centre around noise and do not revolve around destroyed rotors or warped backing plates. even then it is likely those who have nose issues did not lubricate the rear of the pad before installing it which is what stops the harmonic squeal. If you are warping backing plates you are abusing your bike or riding it hard on a track. Simple as that. Any and I repeat any sintered pad will consume more rotor as its a higher friction rating and thats simply common sense. So where does this negativity around EBC come from. Well if you do the research early on when the HH pads were released they did have a problem with backing plates. Just like any and every manufacture runs into hiccups. EBC is no different. That problem was corrected years ago and no loner exists. As for rotor wear on the earlier bikes with cast iron rotors the sintered pads did destroy them. Cast iron was not compatible with sintered coper. Today all bikes including our ninja 1000s have a stainless steel rotor which stands up to modern sintered pads. Yes it will wear slightly faster but that may mean getting 70 000 km out of it before replacement rather then 80, 000 km. In fact all major players use sintered pads from the factory and you dont see rotors being eaten off. In the end for street use. Touring and some spirited twisty riding any of the major players sintered pads will out perform the stock pads and be a great upgrade. Weather you prefer versah over Ebc or CL is the difference between weather you prefer starbucks over krispy creme.

With that I appreciate everyones advice. At the end of the day I will go down to my local bike shop gp bikes which is two wheel mega store and I will find out who's pads make the most sense from a cost stand point. I am leaning towards either the EBC HH or the Vesrah JL pads and I am sure both will work very well. If I end up with the EBC I am willing to bet I ride the next 30,000 km with out an issue. If I do have an issue I will eat my words. No problem.

As for messing with the back brake and putting on a brembo calliper and screwing with return springs ect ect. That is all nonsense and completely unnecessary. Not one of you here knows better then the engineers at Kawi. Again they designed the brakes on this bike for street use and engineered them to be adequate. Which even with the stock pads are. I believe they erred on the side of caution and chose a GG rated pad on the rear to prevent lock up for the average street rider with the understanding that even so the performance of the brakes match their intended use and the weight of the bike. The other thing to understand is cost. It is highly likely the stock pads were chosen on a cost basis ore then anything else.

Thank you all for your advice. I dont subscribe to panic culture or fear mongering nor do I subscribe to hating one brand over another and blasting it on that basis of seat of the pants claims. No matter what pads you choose or which mods you do I wish everyone to enjoy your bikes and great riding season!
 

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This isnt a war at all. I dont believe anyone here considers anyone else to be anything but friends. Words always look much more powerful than reality and I can promise , at least from my side, that this is not a war. Nothing here more serious than calling your best friend an idiot. If you type that out it looks bad, but in real life, everyone is laughing.

My negativity for ebc comes from the five sets ive owned and used. This includes the front and rear for my sv650, the front and rear for my yz 250, the set of fronts for my concours 14, and the set of rears for my ninja 1000. I think thats six?.....This also includes the Galfer, Brembo, DP, chinese, and Vesrah pads I have owned and used. There may even be more brands I dont remember. Anyone who would rate ebc as an excellent pad, or as a pad that topped this list is someone who has never tried anything else or uses them at such a low level, it really doesnt matter what pad is in place.


If you are sold on Kawasakis engineering , why are you trying to improve the rear brake? Based on what you said, they set it up perfectly for what you are using them for. Take a closer look at your rear pad. If it really is the oem pad, you are not even close to a "GG" level friction rating. If its really the stock pad, its an "FF" rating. If there engineering is correct, and everything else is nonsense, just think about this.

This isnt opinion, this is fact. You can google "brake pad friction rating". Your stock pads would be rated with a friction coefficient of LESS than 0.25 to 0.35. If you have "GG" pads, someone has replaced them before you bought the bike. Your change to ebc HH would be moving into the range of 0.55 to 0.65. You cant believe in the engineers got it right if you are willing to make such a drastic change, can you?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Well I dont wish to argue with anyone. Pad choice is subjective. I rebuilt a cbr 1100XX two years ago and for cost purposes I used Chinese pads from a company called sixty off eBay. Straight organic pads. Now google Chinese motorcycle brake pads and you will read a thousand reviews from people who are calling them pure **** and dangerous and wouldn't risk their life on them. I rode the bike for a season before selling it and I had absolutely not a single reason to complain about those pads which cost me a staggering 60 dollars. They felt fantastic and at the end of the season when I sold it they had very little wear. Indeed they were more than adequate enough to stop that monster of a motorcycle during faster paced touring riding.

With respect to the engineers at Kawi. Its almost certain that they didnt simply choose a set of brakes and a set of pads off the shelf and said these will be good enough. Its a certainty that the brake system and its associated choices were chosen with specific reasons in mind and then it was ridden and ridden in test scenarios several times until it was dialled in with what the engineers determined was the right setup for their goals which is sport touring and not track use. Again this is not a track bike. Its a touring bike with a sporty appeal. Lets not pretend its something its not. As such it was set up this way. As I said I am sure I agree that the rear brake was set up not to lock in the absence of ABS. A choice what was made by the engineers for safety reasons to prevent accidents from inexperienced street riders using them incorrectly in emergent situations. The side effect of this choice was a rear brake that is not very powerful but is certainly adequate.

For my level or riding and experience I would like the rear brake to be slightly more powerful because I am very well versed in threshold braking practices and locking is not a worry factor for me. I am not choosing stronger pads because I believe the engineers failed this bike and got it wrong. I am choosing them because I believe the engineers got it right for the intended use and intended buyer. The system was designed and set up as a work around to the cost saving choice not to include abs and to prevent less experienced riders from locking the back wheel in the absence of abs. For kawasaki this was the right choice and common sense. For my skill set that additional safety margin is not necessary. That is all. Indeed this bike with the stock setup is perfectly fine and perfectly safe for anyone who rides it in its intended use. Touring with a bit of sporty riding.

As for pads one is as good as the other. A sintered pad is a sintered pad. Sure there may be minor differences but for street riding they will be minimal. I dont believe ebc makes junk any more then i believe Vesrah makes the golden egg. If EBC were pure crap they would be out of business long ago. Like i said you cant argue with hundreds and hundreds of positive reviews. Pick your poison and enjoy. No matter what you choose as long as its a good brand name you will be fine.

Again thank you for the advice. Its been well considered and appreciated.
 

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For me, a sintered pad is not a sintered pad. Vesrah and CL chart their pad performance of different sintered models. Why would Vesrah make so many different sintered pads if sintered pads are all the same?

The backing plate is just too thin on EBC HH pads and and I have warped them just on spirited rides in the hills on the street. I see way less rotor wear since I moved from EBC HH to Galfer and then to CL.

Galfer makes good pads but they are so messy. CL has great modulation without a crazy initial bite, yet I've never seen fade on the street with great power when asked for.

I bought a bike that had Vesrah pads and liked them. Again, good modulation.

I'll probably never experience Vesrah race pads on my track bike as I am extremely happy with my Brembo Z04 pads on my GP4-RR calipers with narrowband iron Braketech rotors.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
And yes more then anything else I consider this fire side chat. A good chin wag. We all have different opinions and its good to consider those of others!
 

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More than just different opinions, different riding styles and different ideas on where to take the Ninja. There's a wealth of crossover information between those who just can't make their Ninja fast enough, light enough and powerful enough and those of us who just want a bit more comfort while touring.


There is an amazing wealth of information exchange on the forums and I'm often amazed at just how much time people are willing to spend on some issue to help. Thanks everyone! Learning all the time...
 
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